Hi all,

I recently thought about designing some new challenges for my PC’s and as they work for an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor, they mainly clash with different kind of heretics (mixed with some xenos (ie. Amranthine Syndicate) and a few malefic enemies (ie. Brotherhood, Pilgrims etc.)). Their main enemies have been the Logicians and the Serrated Query so far and I am about to include Phaenonites in the near future, and they are rather fond of their enmity towards all kind of tech-heresies.

Now, my problem is, I find it rather difficult to differentiate between the different kind of tech-heresies/hereteks. In regard to malefic cults I find it easier to differentiate between the methods and focus of lets say the Brotherhood of the Horned Darkness, the Pilgrims of Hayte, the Menagerie and others. So, my question is how to set the different heretek organizations apart from each other? What are their individual strengths and weaknesses? What is their focus and way of methods?

• The Phaenonites seem to concentrate mainly on warp-infused technology, use Chaos as a tool and are led by certain radical Inquisitors.
• The Logicians are somehow rather monodominant in their attitude towards xenos, promote technological progress for the sake of it and are led by so called Iron Tetrarchs of whom some think they are or were initiated by Recongregators.
• The Serrated Query are very opportunistic and progressive (philosophicaly as well as technologicaly), but also somehow atheistic (using Chaos is OK though) and led by the Faceless One who might have links to Chaos or not.
• Then we have the Dark Mechanicus, who are well the Mechanicus fallen to Chaos. They have also all kind of warp-infused technology, but are devoted to Chaos (contrary to the Phaenonites).
• The Empyric Engineers are somehow like the Xanthites of the Mechanicus.
• Umbra Malgyris seem to be a Magos who experimented a lot with humans and seem to be a little unhinged (at least in comparison to the Phaenonites), but many are after his 'results'.
• Nomen Ryne was working a lot on artificial intelligience and is also rather progressively thinking philosophically.
• Anmicus Tole is more some kind of occult techno-mystic.
• Illucis Grizvaldi seem to be a ruthless and very successful and/or talented reclaimator somehow.

Has anyone ideas how to further differentiate these heretek factions?

I'm far from the most informed person when it comes to Dark Heresy's lore but as I just read through the Radical's handbook for the first time a few days ago, and have done some research into different factions of the Mechanicus for myself in the past, I'm at least going to have a crack at this.

The Phaenonites aren't just another group of radicals, they're outright excommunicate tratoris. They only survive by operating deep undercover or by simply leaving no witnesses whatsoever and are powerful and cunning enough to have endured purges by both the Inquisition and the Adeptus Mechanicus. They follow neither the Gods of Chaos nor the Emperor and instead believe that it is their destiny to rule the universe, reshaped to suit their interpretation of perfection. The Phaenonites believe that though the combination of dark sciences and the power of the warp they can become immortal and powerful beyond measure, that one day they will rule all and become the "ultimate masters of machine, flesh, matter and spirit". They wish to tear down all trace of both the Imperium and the followers of Chaos so that they may shape mankind's destiny as they see fit through the power of the warp.

The Logicians are a sect who believe in progress at any cost is a price worth paying. Their goal is to restore the Imperium to its former greatness, whether this be through seeking out lost, and potentially forbidden technology, or dealing with the dark powers. While their goal might sound somewhat noble, it bears remembering that the "golden age" they seek to recreate and the forbidden knowledge they long for are what led to the creation of horrors like Abominable Intelligence and brought about the Dark Age of Technology. Not a great deal is known about the Logicians but their doctrine is said to be akin to a more extreme version of the Recongregator's beliefs. Rather than merely aiming to reform the Imperium to better prepare it for the future, they wish to unlock all of its lost and forbidden secrets to strengthen the Imperium, regardless of the cost.

I know absolutely nothing about the methods of the Serrated Query. All that the Radical's handbook speaks of is their near-complete destruction at the hands of two Inquisitors and a sect of Oblationists. Sorry.

The Dark Mechanicus are pretty straightforward as the chaotic equivalent of the Adeptus Mechanicus. They have a far more individualist nature, as follows of Chaos tend to be selfish in nature, and are generally seeking knowledge either for personal advancement or to further the war against the Imperium. Their technology relies heavily on the binding of daemons and other warp sorcery and is likely to be either archaic or based on forgotten designs due to their access to materials and designs long forgotten by the Imperium. As their are few Forge Worlds inside the Eye of Terror, Dark Mechanicus are likely to have designs on Imperial materials they can salvage for their experimentation and will be willing to part with their own designs for technology they cannot obtain with ease.

Like the Phaenonites, it bears remembering that the Dark Mechanicus aren't mere Radicals but a sect that aims to see the Imperium thrown down. While they may make deals with some of the more Radical members of the Inquisition or operate within Imperial space, their goal will always be to weaken Imperial rule and to strengthen both the powers of Chaos and, of course, themselves.

The Empyrical Engineers, as you say, are essentially the Xanthite faction of the Mechanicus. They believe that by developing means to safely contain the energy of the warp it can be turned against itself and its power harnessed to destroy the enemies of mankind. The Engineers are generally extremely methodical and careful in their studies and have invented devices such as Immateria Wards to protect both themselves and their allies from the baleful energies of the warp. As a result of this, they are rarely insane and surprisingly free from mutation or corruption. The Empyrical Engineers hope to one day advance their knowledge sufficiently to be able to develop new machine spirits that can channel the energies of the warp to both protect the followers of the Emperor and destroy their enemies.

While the Xanthites may be somewhat tolerated by the Inquisition, as they can at least sympathise with their overall goal, the Adeptus Mechanicus can only view the Empryical Engineers as Hereteks. Their intentions, and even their souls, may be pure but their studies revolve entirely around forbidden knowledge and corruption of the holy machine spirit. The Mechanicus are ruthless and relentless in their personal war against the Engineers and others who bear their designs.

Try try and clarify some of my previous ramblings:

The Phaenonites are a faction based in secrecy who seek to overthrow the Imperium and rid the galaxy of the followers of Chaos. The believe in harnessing the power of the warp through technology and reshaping both themselves and their servants to better suit their cause. They see themselves as the eventual rulers of mankind, or whatever twisted design they have in mind for the human form. As full excommunicate tratoris, not merely dangerous radicals, they cannot ever show their colours openly without fear of being hounded by the Inquisition and the Adeptus Mechanicus for the rest of their days. Their present goals generally revolve around developing sufficiently powerful malatek and working their way into positions of power such that their low numbers aren't a problem when they rise up openly.

The Logicians wish to retrieve and restore the lost technology of the Dark Age and "improve" upon the technology of the present day to restore the Imperium to its former greatness. They believe no price is too great to pay for knowledge that may bring about a new golden age and are willing to go to any lengths to achieve their goal. While they are seen as hereteks and as a threat to the stability of Imperial rule, they believe their cause is the only only logical option available for the Imperium and follow it unswervingly. They possess greatly varied archeotech and materials from earlier ages of the Imperium and, seeing their cause as utterly logical will oppose any who seek to stop them, viewing them as a threat to the Imperium's survival.

The Dark Mechanicus are the Chaotic counterparts to their Imperial brethren and masters at combining daemonic powers with forbidden technology. They are likely to be in the Imperium to further their own studies by locating knowledge the Inquisition has sought to hide or simply gaining more material to work with. They will have established a ring of contacts whom they regularly deal with in relative safety both within the Inquisition and with other Chaos agents. The Dark Mechanicus are almost invariably insane to a degree, extremely dangerous and are likely to face the full wrath of both the puritan factions of the Inquisition and the Adeptus Mechanicus wherever they surface. Unlike the Phaenonites, they do worship the powers of Chaos and may be willing to support cults and other enemies of the Imperium with their designs and expertise.

The Empyrical Engineers are Mechanicus who see themselves as faithful followers of the Machine Cult but believe that only through harnessing the energy of the warp and turning it against itself can Chaos truly be defeated. Their stance leads them to be extremely cautious both in their work and dealings as they walk a fine line between their corruption at the hands of Chaos and purgation at the hands of their conventional brethren. Empyrical Engineers will be generally sane and free from corruption but will be engaged in studies and research that could become very unstable if disrupted or threatened by another party. Their work is much sought after by Radical Inquisitors as it is effective at both defending against and destroying Choas and the daemonic. While some members of the Inquisition may tolerate them, the Mechanicus will not and will seek to destroy all traces of their work and those who harness it.

Hope this is of some help, it was certainly interesting to research.

(When I came to write a little summary of each faction, to close, I found that they were generally far more coherent and informative than that which I had originally written. Rather than simply removing the original section, I've left it in as I'm quite sure there are some points I make up there that aren't repeated below. Lazy, I know.)

Hi Luthor,

I think you got it quiet right. All in all, the differences are in the field of technology used, the aim it is used towards and the view of the group/cult using said technology.

To the SQ, it is all "means to an end". To the Logicians, " der Weg ist das Ziel ", so to speak. And so on.

by-the-way: Please check the main DH Forum regarding your PM request for further TF-encounters. I think you did not received my answers (please check your SPAM Filter of your eMail account).

Thanks a lot Dr. Schadenfreude. This is very helpful and fits my vision of the different organizations. What still irks me though that I still find it hard to create different and original threats from these organizations. The 'differences in the field of technology' as Gregorius said is still not differing enough in my view. It seems all of the are involved in for example flesh-graft, use of the warp to empower their creations etc. So, I do not want to have a Logician Murder Gholam being indistuinguishable from a SQ Murder Gholam and a Phaenonite Murder Gholam. I want my players to recognize certain '(technological) signatures' and modus operandi that sets each organization apart from one another...

The Adeptus Mechanicus is one of the more interesting subjects to come out of Dark Heresy for me, and probably for a lot of people. And the question of what is Tech-heresy and what is not is pretty flexible. (In fact some of the fluff refers to Tech priest who were declared hereteks, then hundreds of years later absolved once the Adeptus finally came to understand the technology that they discovered. As to how to differentiate between the different heretek factions, I part of it comes down to the fluff you build around them. For example, the Serrated Query is a high tech criminal organization that does not believe in the superstitions of the imperium. So you could probably have SQ bad guys wield a combination of the best weapons and armor from a variety of xenos races. (Like a thug carrying a Gauss Rifle while wearing tau body armor and using a holofield). Perhaps the Logician big bad guy is supported by a small unit of actual androids and wields an advanced Boltgun that fires seeking bolts with the stats of a Heavy Bolter. Of course, these bad guys are very much like Chaos Space Marines, stats and equipment wise there really isn't much difference between the different traitor legions, but they all have a different feel to them. And that is what you should attempt to embrace. Here are a few things that might help.

Inquisitor article on Explorator Warbands. It explains a few of the AdMech Universal Laws: http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=94688&d=1282096121

Codex Adeptus Mechanicus from Tempus Fugitives: http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/pdf/40k/Codex%20Cult%20Mechanicus.pdf Good background on the Cult of the Machine.

Codex Soul Forge: for the Dark Mechanicum: http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/pdf/40k/Codex%20Soul%20Forge.pdf

There is also a couple background articles on Dark Reign about the AdMech. Hopefully this will help define the differences between what is perceived as tech-heresy.

Salcor

The Serrated Query are explained in much more detail at the back of the Purge The Unclean DH adventure book.

They are an old recidivist organisation (possibly pre-heresy old) with uncertain origins. They are solely interested in profit and are organised in a cell-like structure. They mock the superstition, reverence and sacrifice of Imperial citizens, preferring profit here and now. The cell in the Calixis sector may or may not be a pawn of a chaos renegade.

Thanks again for the helpful input. Salcors ideas are great and I somehow should somehow try to emphasise the diferences of these organizations. So, the SQ are rather xenophile (in comparison to the Logicians) and so the use of xeno-tech should be given priority, whereas I should do some research into the Dark Age of Technology for the Logicians and should concentrate on the 'warp-empowererd' aspect in regard to the Phaenonites...

Although they are not strictly Dark Heresy material, but on the topic of Tech-Heresy, you can always check out the Horus Heresy: Mechanicum (by Grahamn McNeill) book and 2nd book of the Grey Knights trilogy, Dark Adeptus (by Ben Counter). It has a lot of interesting options, although it's up to you to adapt them according to the heretek groups that are present in your game.