The Hero party is getting ready to exit the dungeon at The Fool's Rapids. The OL had played the plot card "The Harbinger Approaches" at the beginning of the week. The Avatar is the Spider Queen whose Keep is at the Whispering Forest, two weeks travel from the Hero party. So, because of the play of the plot card "The Harbinger Approaches" the Hero party can travel to the Whispering Forest to initate the "Final Battle".

The rules provide a process for initiating the "Final Battle" after the combined conquest total passes 600. Is that process for initiating the "Final Battle" changed in any way because of the play of the plot card "The Harbinger Approaches"?

Aged One said:

I'd say that the plot card "advances the campain" to the 600CT point (without the XP of course) and thus you initiate the "final battle" in just the same way. It's a nice way to limit the available XP for the heroes (if the OL is prepared)

The Harbinger Approaches does not affect total Conquest, nor does it start the Final Battle.

The card does however start a game-ending clock, in which the heroes lose if eleven comets are accumulated at the four temples (basically, at one comet per week, that means the OL automatically wins 10 weeks from first play of The Harbinger Approaches).

Jack Ketch said:

Actually the card says "if you ever end your turn with nine Comet tokens in play, you win the campaign."

And it says "The heroes may enter your Keep while this card is in play." On page 20, it states quite clearly that "heroes can't enter the Overlord's Keep....before the Final Battle begins." Therefore, the Final Battle begins when the hero party enters the OL's Keep and both the hero party and the OL follow the process outlined on page 20 for the Final Battle: "When the Final Battle is determined to have begun...."

Aged One said:

Strictly speaking that is not a true logical procession. The Harbinger card merely overrides the base rule that the Heroes cannot enter the Overlords keep.

However if you follow the rules on Pg 20 for what happens when the heroes enter the OLs keep, what you get is the final battle. Importantly though, it is not "the Final Battle" so you don't go through the Tamalir training, nor is CT reduced to zero etc.( ie don't follow steps 1-3 in the top half of the right column on pg 20, go staright to step 4.) However, once you reach the 5th level and the OL's Avatar appears you will follow steps 1-3 on the bottom half on right side pg 20.

It will be the final battle, but it will not be the Final Battle.

Corbon said:

Can you show me where in the rulebook are the rules that cover: "It will be the final battle, but it will not be the Final Battle"? Where in the rules does it say you do not follow the Final Battle rules when the Final Battle has begun?

The OL has played a card that changes a basic rule in the rulesbook (its not as if there aren't plenty of situations where cards change basic rules in the rulesbook for both the OL and the Hero party). This card starts a OL controlled game-ending timer and can effect permanent damage to the Hero party, but it also affords the Hero party the opportunity to start "the Final Battle" earlier.

Unless I am misunderstanding the card, all the "Harbinger Approaches" does is remove the restriction on entering the OL's Keep until the combined CP equals or exceeds 600 CP. It does not advance the game to the 600XP point.

This is my understanding of how it works: The restriction on entering the Keep is gone. At that point, when the Heroes choose to enter the OL's Keep, the Final Battle then begins. Its a way for the Heroes to force the endgame, regardless if they or the OL are ready in order to avoid Death by Comet. So once the Heroes enter the Keep, you would follow all the normal Final Battle rules using the XP you currently have, and then enter the Keep.

You go to zero XP, run through the 5 floors, and then enter the final battle (different than the Final Battle) with the OL and do all the things associated with that.

Of course, remember that the PC's are also taking on the Overlord when they are far from prepared to do so, thus provides the overlord a hefty advantage. If you play smart as an Overlord and load the map with Lieutenants and destroy cities quickly you can easily get this condition in late Copper, Early Silver. Meaning while the monsters in the dungeons might be at your level, you'll be facing a DIAMOND LEVEL monster without any Gold Level treasures. In other words you're likely to get beaten really badly in the final battle, especially with the permanent losses from the Comet. Forcing the Endgame early is of a great benefit to the Overlord.

I find the Ascension plot fairly easy to pull out. A smart Overlord can easily after one or two dungeons get 4 leautents out sieging cities (The 3 farrows can be got for a measly 11 CT!) so long as Sir, Lord and then Lady farrow are brought out in order. Plus I can be fairly cheesy in Lieutenant Battles, using monsters and spawns as meat shields while using smart movement techniques. The PC's assaulted Lady Farrow and while she almost died, it was a mistake on my part for using her to strike a killing blow on a PC, thus exposing her to smart positioning by the party's melee character and burning a Power Potion to give her 5 silver dice. That's a good question though. When you use a power potion, does it efficiently give you 5 upgrades or just turn your dice pool to 5 if it isn't already. I've been using it as 5 dice of upgrades as though you spent 5 surges, but the rules don't tell anything one way or the other.

Plus driving off a Lieutenant does nothing for the PC's other than probably prevent a siege from destroying a city. The Lieutenant gets sent back to the keep, delaying them for a few turns, but they can just move right back to where they were or siege somewhere else. Plus the PC's get no CT's or Money from the fight, meaning that the Overlord comes out ahead if some of the PC's are dropped during the fight.

Aged One said:

Wrong way of looking at it I think. Can you show me where in the rules or cards it says that the Harbinger starts "the Final Battle"?
Or where entering the OLs Keep (once the usual restriction has been lifted by the Harbinger) automatically starts "the Final Battle"?

You can't (I think), because it doesn't.

In fact, "the Final Battle" only kicks in when the combined CT total reaches 600. See Pg 9, The Final Battle

At the beginning of the game week when... ...the Final Battle begins.

At this stage, and only this stage, the conditions on pg 20 (ironically under the title 'The Overlords Keep' kick in. This is where the party moves to Tamalir, trains once etc.

However if the party merely enters the OLs Keep without triggering the Final Battle conditions (heading there on the overland map and entering by virtue of the Harbinger allowing them to, just like any other dungeon) then they are merely exploring the Overlords Keep and follow only the set of rules on pg 20 under the heading Exploring the Overlord's Keep. These do not include Training in Tamalir.

Aged One said:

Wrong way of looking at it I think. Can you show me where in the rules or cards it says that the Harbinger starts "the Final Battle"?
Or where entering the OLs Keep (once the usual restriction has been lifted by the Harbinger) automatically starts "the Final Battle"?

You can't (I think), because it doesn't.

In fact, "the Final Battle" only kicks in when the combined CT total reaches 600. See Pg 9, The Final Battle

At the beginning of the game week when... ...the Final Battle begins.

At this stage, and only this stage, the conditions on pg 20 (ironically under the title 'The Overlords Keep' kick in. This is where the party moves to Tamalir, trains once etc.

However if the party merely enters the OLs Keep without triggering the Final Battle conditions (heading there on the overland map and entering by virtue of the Harbinger allowing them to, just like any other dungeon) then they are merely exploring the Overlords Keep and follow only the set of rules on pg 20 under the heading Exploring the Overlord's Keep. These do not include Training in Tamalir.

Corbon said:

That's an interesting distinction that I don't think I considered before. I would have to agree with that I think.

Darkfire14 said:

From the Frequently Asked Questions, Rules Errata and Clarifications page 7:

In the advanced campaign, power potions work differently from the way they are described in Well of Darkness. Instead of allowing the hero to roll all five black power dice on a single attack, power potions now give the hero five free "boosts" to his power dice, exactly as if the hero had spent five fatigue before rolling his attack dice. In all other respects, power potions are unchanged.

Its five upgrades as though you spent 5 fatigue.

Corbon said:

I already showed you in the rules:

And it says "The heroes may enter your Keep while this card is in play." On page 20, it states quite clearly that "heroes can't enter the Overlord's Keep....before the Final Battle begins." Therefore, the Final Battle begins when the hero party enters the OL's Keep and both the hero party and the OL follow the process outlined on page 20 for the Final Battle: "When the Final Battle is determined to have begun...."

And your correct, the Hero party does follow the "Exploring the Dungeon" rules on page 20 as a subset of the "Final Battle" rules (see step 4). And there is a further complication, what do you do with conquest tokens that the OL suddenly now carries over into exploring the Keep. The rules say that only conquest tokens "scored" since the Heroes entered the OL's Keep? Are you going to maintain two sets of books on conquest tokens (yes, I know you can do it, but it is not a part of the rules for exploring the Keep)?

I've submitted this rules question to FFG.

Aged One said:

And we already agreed that the Harbinger card overrode that rule...

Rule 1. Heroes can't enter OLs Keep before Final Battle.
Rule 2 (with power to override rule 1 - cards do that) Heroes can enter the OLs keep when the Harbinger is in play. No mention of Final Battle.

Rule 1 is not in action if rule 2 is being invoked. (you can't use rule 2 without either breaking or ignoring rule 1).

Thus, there is no Final Battle. Just exploring the OLs Keep. This is bad for the heroes as they don't get a last opportunity to train,

Its supposed to be bad for the heroes - the OL has completed his dastardly plot and is about to be all powerful. The heroes have failed, but have one last ditch attempt to recover from their mistakes and truly be heroes.

You specifically do keep a second set of books. The book tells you to track new CTs, so when you finally meet the Avatar you have the appropriate CT totals right there on your new track!

I hope you bothered to lay out the question properly. FFG are no better than most rules designers at answering questions. Unless all the details are laid out for them in the body of the question they often answer according to what they think they wrote (or what they intended to write), not according to what they actually wrote.

Corbon said:

Well, unfortunately, I am beginning to be swayed by your arguments.

Corbon said:

I laid the question as I saw it; whether it meets your standard of "bothering to lay out the question properly" I don't know. I guess you'll have to submit your own question (BTW, I'm not expecting an answer). But if I get one, I would hope that they would answer it as they intended the rules to read, rather than just RAW.

So to sum up with The Harbinger Approaches in play, are we leaning towards an interpretation that Heroes can enter the Overlord's Keep in an attempt to kill the Avatar, but this does not trigger the Final Battle steps normally triggered by exceeding 600 CQ?

Jack Ketch said:

That is what the RAW says.

However, play it how you like.

Incidentally, to further muddy the waters, if you read the OL's Keep's actual dungeon notes they generally (I didn't check them all) say, when you reach the stage where the Avatar appears, that "the Final Battle begins" or something. In typically casual ruleswriting it appears there are multiple differing definitions of what a 'Final Battle' is.

1. Campaign ending rules call everything from the time the total reaches 600CT at the start of a week "the Final Battle" - this includes the pre-training etc.

2. OL Keep entering rules call entering the OL's Keep 'the Final Battle' - here you don't get to train because you have already gone past that stage of the 'Final Battle' rules and entered the Keep.

3. Avatar's Dungeon Levels call the last room with only Avatar and Heroes, no threat/cards, boosted wound totals etc, 'the Final Battle' - no training here because you are mid-dungeon!

I'd say, use each as appropriate to the circumstances, following the rules for whichever one's condition you have triggered..

"So to sum up with The Harbinger Approaches in play, are we leaning towards an interpretation that Heroes can enter the Overlord's Keep in an attempt to kill the Avatar, but this does not trigger the Final Battle steps normally triggered by exceeding 600 CQ?"

I'm sorry, but the RAW that I read do not say that; that is the problem. I do, however, like your thematic rationale better than I like your rules interpretations. As I indicated earlier, I am awaiting a response from FFG; however, as I submitted during the interval between XMAS and New Years, it may be some time before they get to it, if they do at all.