Hey I have readed in the forums answers about this, but seems( or I cant find it) we dont have official answer about this.

So if Andira Runehand attack an adjacent enemy with a Breath weapon, she gains Pierce just for that enemy or the whole Breath attack?

Thank you!

Mcmanus said:

There is no 'official' answer because none is need. The rules are very clear.

Read this recent thread. Reply #5 covers the rules. After that there is some discussion and explanation of reasonable thematics.

When Andira Runehand makes a Magic attack on an adjacent enemy, she gains Pierce 2.

She gains Pierce 2 for the whole attack against all figures engulfed in the breath template as long as at least 1 enemy inside the breath template is adjacent to her.

Beastmen's bad breath makes her angry.

EDIT: Corbon was faster, but a similar question came to mind. What if Andira makes a blast attack 2 squares away from her, and an adjacent enemy is caught in the blast? Following the same principle, she should also gain Pierce 2 for that attack, but since in that case she makes a Magic attack on a non-adjacent square, I'm not sure it works the same way...

Thank you=)

I'll play in that way then, even I think she was designed in a diferent way=)

Thank you again.

Yea, I find that ruling totally counter-intuitive. She should gain Pierce 2 only for adjacent targets, as printed on her hero sheet.(regardless of the attack's radius)

zealot12 said:

Just curious, what makes you so certain that your thematic explanation, which runs counter to the clear rules, is so much better than my thematic explanation (in the previously linked thread), which fits the rules perfectly?

Ispher said:

That's a good question. I'm not really sure how it should rule. I suppose the monster right next to her would receive the pierce, but would all monsters in the blast? Not sure really...

-shnar

shnar said:

Yes she would. It is an attack on an adjacent enemy. The target is always 'a space' (except for breath) rather than 'an enemy' so the wording 'attack on an adjacent enemy' can only mean 'attack that affects an adjacent enemy'.
Just as if the enemy had Fear she would need to spend surges, or had Stealth she would need to add in the stealth dice, if she attacks an enemy adjacent to her (and she has) then she gains Pierce2.

Sorry, I just don't get it. Why should an ability that only affects adjacent spaces/targets extend to non-adjacent spaces when used in conjunction with an AOE attack?

I can accept that Andira's pierce will affect all creatures within the blast/breath radius, but what I don't understand at all is how one dodging creature can make all creatures dodge.

Or how Ironskin creatures can somehow make all creatures have ironskin. That is the kind of rules writing that is so counter-intuitive that I just don't ever see my play groups actually playing that way.

In my opinion, everything should have been worded exactly like the rules for stealth. Only the creature with stealth is actually effected or not effected by the result of the stealth die.

i do realize that the intent is most likely to prevent getting lost on which creatures have been wounded, and which dice still need to be rerolled.

Reading these forums just make me feel like I have no clue how to play this game and that every time I read another post I'm going to find something else I've been doing wrong.

zealot12 said:

Did you bother to read the thematic explanation? or any of the rest of the thread discussing it?

The ability does not affect adjacent spaces. It affects Andira . Andira gains the Pierce . That is the rules perspective.

Thematically it is a local 'in', global 'out' affect. Andira sucks in some extra energy (from an adjacent enemy figure) and that energy is transmitted into her attack outwards (global out). Apparently though, the attack is then is some way 'tuned' to the source of the energy as it doesn't work unless that source is included in the outward affect as well.

Note that it isn't likely, logically, to be an actual affect from her touching he enemy figure with her runehand , because it works even when she has both hands full .

I can accept that Andira's pierce will affect all creatures within the blast/breath radius, but what I don't understand at all is how one dodging creature can make all creatures dodge.

That one is more difficult, admittedly. Try think of a 'dodge' as more like a 'feint'. It is more an attempt to disrupt the attack by messing it up rather than being in a different place than where it hits. Like throwing your backpack at the guy aiming a bow at you, or kicking a stool at the feet of the guy charging you with sword raised. Or throwing a mug of beer at the mage chanting and pointing a staff at you. If you are really lucky, the chanting dissolves in a splutter, or the staff get dropped entirely. More likely it will merely mean a word mispronounced or a wavering staff and the attack effect is slightly weaker. For me it usually means the mage narrows his concentration and focus and the attack is more dangerous than ever.

Or how Ironskin creatures can somehow make all creatures have ironskin. That is the kind of rules writing that is so counter-intuitive that I just don't ever see my play groups actually playing that way.

That one is hilarious. There was a 10 page discussion over how Ironskin vs Sorcery should work and then only thing generally agreed was that it was definitively a 'local' defence and only helped the owner. Then we got the FAQ answer...
It is almost certainly a 'KISS' answer, an occasion where simplicity wins over realism (much like many of the Soar rules).

In my opinion, everything should have been worded exactly like the rules for stealth. Only the creature with stealth is actually effected or not effected by the result of the stealth die.
i do realize that the intent is most likely to prevent getting lost on which creatures have been wounded, and which dice still need to be rerolled.

That is exactly why most of the 'strange' rules are 'strange'. KISS. This is, afterall, a boardgame, and even keeps to nice simple squares instead of hexes!

Reading these forums just make me feel like I have no clue how to play this game and that every time I read another post I'm going to find something else I've been doing wrong.

In the end, it doesn't matter much if you were doing it wrong, as long as you enjoyed it and didn't have balance issues.

Corbon said:

Huh, I think you're reading too much into it. (: This interpretation is too convoluted for me. The way I see it,(I had mentioned this before), she's got an armor-shattering aura around her when making a Magic attack so adjacent targets' armor will suffer two damage when Andira hits them.The Pierce 2 effect will only affect all adjacent targets if Andia uses a Blast 1 attack, or a skill, if one exists, that allows her to hit several adjacent targets in one attack.

I like the fact that Andira's Pierce ability can somehow extend to Breaths and adjacent Blasts. I like that character's design, especially because playing her is much more risky than playing other mages and she's already no big match for many other mages (landek, astarra and kel come to my mind), so I can't see any reason why she shouldn't have a combo or two to her side. As for Ironskin (and Unstoppable?) and blasts that's simply ridiculous and I'll always home rule it so that only the Ironskin character gets the benefits. Full stop. After all, playing is about having fun, not strictly following a manual IMHO.

zealot12 said:

I think you should go and actually read the thread Corbon linked in his original response. We hashed all this out in much greater detail there.

We all know that Descent doesn't always make sense. A pit limits the LoS of figures inside, but it does not limit the LoS of figures outside to the figure inside. I can have a skeleton at the other end of the hall shooting at a hero inside a pit because the pit token has no effect on figures that aren't standing on it. LIkewise, Andira gains Pierce 2 if she makes a magic attack against an adjacent enemy. That means "Pierce 2" is written on Andira's attack, whatever it may be, as long as it's a magic attack and includes an adjacent enemy. Once Pierce 2 is written there, it affects the entire attack.

I know this seems counter-intuitive. It's hardly the first time Descent has shown itself to have counter-intuitive rules. However, the fact remains it is you who are making this ruling more convoluted than it really is by adding extra restrictions to suit your imaginings of how the ability "should" work. If Andira's ability were meant to be an aura, they would have given her Aura .

Magic in general is known for breaking the normal laws of physics and otherwise doing things that can't be done. There's no reason why Corbon's fluff explanation is any less viable than yours where magic is concerned. It's magic. If his fluff doesn't work for you, I'm sure there any number of other fluff explanations that can also be applied to suit the rules as they are written. The fact remains that Pierce, as an ability, is applied to an entire attack, not just to one or two figures included in an attack that hits several targets. If Andira gains Pierce, she gains it versus everybody.

zealot12 said:

Ahh, you seem to be missing the point.

The rules are clear. This is how it works. That is a thematic explanation that fits the rules. I'm not 'reading anything in to it', I'm trying to help you get your head around it.
Yet because you have your head wrapped around it a different way you insist it should work your way (reply #4). I was curious as to what makes you think the rues should change to fit you when they work perfectly well the way they are?

So what you're saying is: the very presence of an adjacent target grants Andira's attack a Pierce 2, huh? Well, it's plausible, I guess. We have two different readings of her ability.I dislike forum bickering; it rarely leads to anything producttive. We'll simply have to agree to diasgree on this. It's just a game anyway.(: