I'm working on a project and could use a suggestion: What Earth-analogue region matches the Border Princes?

The Balkans

..

Yes, I think Monkeylite is right.

I think the analogue approach breaks down a bit for the Border Princes but yes Balkans for feel generally.

I agree re: the Balkans, but the Caucasus could be another inspiration.

Another could be Siberia (hear me out): the region is not just a collection of little despots trying to lord it over each other and retain their independence. It is also a frontier region, butting up against (and expanding into territory controlled by) weird natives. (Orcs & Goblins mostly, but possibly also Skaven, Dwarves and the Undead.) When I say Siberia I'm thinking of the period in which the European Russians expanded Eastwards rather than the period in which Russia actually incorporated Siberia.

The Wild West and Central and Southern America in the colonial periods could be other examples of inspiration.

Kind of like the Balkans but with some Outremer added in for flavor (Errantry Wars are essentially Crusades)

I agree Balkans seems to be the closest. But I will add turky as well, not for cultural comparison but for geographical comparison. Don't the Border Princes border a large desert?, So does Turkey.

So I would say that the Border Princes is a mix of balkans and turky.

Beside nuln sometimes strikes me at being a reinassance Belgrade or even Budapest. I think that some of the balkans have moved north of the black mountains.

The illogical consequences of fantasy literature.

Balkans being one of the major gateways between Asia and Europe makes it a natural pressure point, Caucasus being another gateway.
Traditional the Balkans have been the battlefields between different Christian European powers and the Muslim Ottoman Empire. The Holy German Roman Empire was the one that did most to influence and assert power over the Balkans.

Being a buffer zone between the various Christian kingdoms and the mighty Ottoman empire, made it a lawless place as the different power blocks tried to assert, consolidate or foil others attempts to build power. Ottoman empire also had the nasty habit to push unwanted peoples and nomads, into the Balkans (some of these unwanted people would later form Albania), to further destabilize the region. To further complicate matters a group of fiercely independent nomads from Siberia roamed the Balkans, known as the Magyars. They sacked Christian temples as well as Muslim mosques with impunity and little discrimination. The Magyars would later settle (in what is today Hungary), and in effect become their own Power block.
Where am I going with this?

You see the Border princes is very much like the Balkans, and the Holy German Roman empire is well, The Empire. But there is no Ottoman Empire, so what in effect, holds back Sigmar’s Empire to claim all of the Border Princes? This is what I call the illogical consequence of fantasy literature.

You could argue that the Chaos is holding the Empire back. But exactly where does Chaos bind Imperial forces, to what section of a border or front do Chaos forces uphold large forces of Imperial forces? Last I checked The Empire had less than 1000 soldiers in Kislev.
Even when the Holy Roman Empire was rife with political intrigues, troubled with high crime and disaffecting fiefdoms or even rebellious cities, they managed to assert influence over the Balkans colonizing it with german settlers.

It does not make any sense why Karl Franz would not take the Border Princes for himself. There is no power block that will hinder the good emperor to spread the teaching of Sigmar to the lawless Border Princes.
I would have understood a reluctance to expand if the area was barren and poor in natural resources or that the Empire was threaten by its neighbor. But as I see the relationship with both Bretonnia and Kislev is good, and great parts of the Border Princes is fertile (a must for successful colonization) and rich with resources (good for building and consolidate power).
It’s high time to bring the word of Sigmar to the Border Princes, assemble the armies!

Your history is a bit off Mal.

The Turks occupied 'the balkans' for 600 years, who then shook them off after a bloody war of independence. Albanians are actually muslim converts from the area who were considered traitors to their people, and therefore moved into a tiny region so that they could practice their lifestyle and religion. The Holy Roman empire had relatively little influence, as the Magyars (fierce horse nomads) eventually settled under the rule of Hungary and Bulgaria, and it took the unification of the region under Austro-Hungary (which was formed largely through political marriages) to change its military and political outlook somewhat (and not for a long time I might add). The influence in the area was largely through religion, and the 'Balkans' were more strongly allied with the Ottomans, Slavs (russia) and Greeks via Orthodoxy than the Germans or the Austrians.

Warhammer isn't exactly Europe, and magic is prevalent. While the Empire is strong, I'm not sure how Bretonnia, Kislev etc would react to a full scale march to claim the Border Princedoms. The question also arises as to 'why' they would? There were several crusades (Order of the Burning Heart) that made headway, but were ultimately consumed and rebuffed. It isn't about claiming territory but about holding it, and receiving something useful for your troubles. Oh and not freaking out your neighbours with expanstionistic policies. Plus who does the region then annex to, how to handle additional elector counts and other headaches crop up.

shinma said:

my history may be a bit off, since it was meant as a summary rather than a history lesson. German settlers, known as saxon germans "did" have an influence on the region. And the Holy German Roman Empire where important members of the "holy league 1686". But that is beside the point.

the question is why wouldn`t the Empire of Sigmar expand? There you have the Border princes a large area without any strong ruler or Power. The Empire have done several forrays into the Border Princedoms before. Mostly to face a threat of some sort, others where of more permant basis. Today the Empire have a stronghold in the Border Princes called Morthensholm. its ruled by the Steinkuhler princes (originally from Middenland), and 3 companies of Imperial troops are stationed there to garison the walled city. This is done to protect the Winter's Teeth trade route. Which can be used as an excuse to expand.

But as you said, this will not go quiet, especially for Bretonnia or Tilea. Both have their own trading posts in the region. So likely they will step up their own plans to take control of the area. Below are some examples on how the Empire could choose to deal with the Border Princes.

Imperial Grand Marshal Plan: But the Empire have claims on the Border Princes, a substantial minority of the Border princes population are from the Empire. we fear that good sigmarites' are persecuted by local regimes, we need to protect them with imperial forces.

In Sigmar's name: we need to spread the word of our beloved Sigmar to the hard tried peoples of the Border Princes. But of course our new erected temples in the Border princes need to be protected by Imperial forces.

To the promised land (colonization): Hard times in the Empire force people to move, especially if they are promised rewards and land ownership, by imperial authority. And it of course the Empire's duty to protect these new settlers with imperial forces.

You see I plan an warhammer campaign where the Empire will expand into Border Princes. The players will be soldiers and settlers, that will in due time find out that the Border princes is not what they thought it was. As support from home evaporates, and one colony after the other crumbles arround them, they will have to take action to save their own colony. will they succeed scraping out a small fiefdom of their own or will they succumb to the many curses that riddle the Border Princes.

good gaming

Some decent ideas there Mal with some solid lore examples! That certainly sounds like a plausible campaign idea, with good potential.

Aha! .............................

Lautrer said:

???? You just wrote to say that? Aren't you an odd fella

Mal Reynolds said:

You're forgetting a few things.

The biggest being the Orcs. There may not be an Ottoman empire, but there's a nigh-infinite number of Orcs to the south and east of the Empire, with most Waaaghs traveling through the border princes on their way to Mad Dog Pass and onwards. These orc invasions are probably the main reason no single warlord can achieve dominance over the Border Princes for long - the next waaagh to come through cripples his forces and leaves him vulnerable to a rival. The same would be the case with an Empire invasion force.

As for the Empire's other neighbours, they may have good relations with Kislev, but Bretonnia has long been a rival and there have been wars between them in the past. With the Empire distracted in the south they might try to take Marienburg again, something no Emperor can afford to let happen.

A bigger problem, however, is the internal divisions within the Empire. An invasion of the Border Princes would leave the Emperor vulnerable to his rivals at home, any number of which would love to see him fail and be removed from power. The ruler of the Empire spends most of his time trying to keep himself on the throne.

Finally, you have to consider whether it is worth it or not. What does the Emperor gain? The BPs might have fertile land and some valuable resources, but they are sparsely populated. The Empire doesn't have a vast surplus population to colonise the princedoms with. The Empire will have conquered a lot of poor territory, which they will then divide up amongst some minor nobility, who will then proceed to bicker and fight amongst themselves. In order to keep the peace the Empire will have to maintain a large force there - and for what? Any taxes gained will be minimal and won't offset the cost of the invasion or occupation force. The constant orc and goblin raids won't help either. Eventually the Empire will have to withdraw, leaving the new nobles to their own devices... and the Border Princes returns to the status quo.

macd21 said:

I am not forgetting a few things (but propably many). But you're right, dead right. It would be an problem for the Empire to invade or take control the Border Princes. I will add your lore of this into my campaign, as they are real problems that the Empire might face. In the end you pretty much sums up how my campaign will end. Somehow of whatever reason the Border Princes always seem to return to status quo. We are on the same page here.

in my campaign the players will have to deal with all this, hold on to their colony, attempt to scrape out a fiefdom for themselves or head back to the empire? my campaign is scheduled not until late 2011 so I have plenty of time preparing, getting advice from sound forumites like yourself.

thanks and good gaming

Good point MacD, but I just wanted to add 2 cents.

Cent #1: Sometimes pressure to act isn't always rational, or a good decision. For example: If a charismatic religious leader declares a crusade ... then the border princedoms may get invaded even if the emperor is wincing over the headaches it'll cause. Your points are solid, and they may very well cause point-counterpoint political examples. The imminent invasion of Marienburg by Bretonia may very well be part of the story.

Cent #2: Never underestimate the power of PCs. While a whole squad of pinkie zealots may get steamrolled by some Boyz and Gobs - the characters in the story are heroes, and the game revolves around them. While ultimately the problem may be too big, and the status quo restored - a strong PC party with some quick thinking and useful adventure hooks from the GM may very well stop several greenskin WAAAAAAAAAAGH incursions, and rebuff border disputes.

Hope that helps, or at least gets ideas percolating

shinma said:

I am currently leaning towards Cent#1: some religous uprising in the border Princes forces the Empire to take action, wheter they will or not. But rather than being a wholepart invasion using the entire army, only a small part of the Imperial South army, will be sent, together with 100s of settlers, religious fanatics, camp followers and Sigmar know whats. My players will be tasked to lead a small band of such people, a group of settlers. They will lead and supervise a small colony as it settles in what is suposed to be a quiet part of the BP, while the army is off fighting somewhere else.

But as the support to this impromptu crusade dwindle of (as it was just a token support), the army retreats and bad things starts to happen. But at this time the party`s group of settlers have formed a community and will be very reluctant to leave, since the road back is no longer protected. hopefully the players will feel the same, and decide to pitch in.

I attend to use the excellent Renegade Crowns -adventurers among the Border Princes (2nd ed) to flesh out my campaign. But rather than being an actual lore book, it contains extensive rules how to create your own fiefdom and how to govern it and building diplomacy with neighboors. in a sense, the players will be in charge of a growing community from day one. a responsiblity and a luxurity I think most players will reluctantly give up. even if rumours of orc invasion hangs in the air.

but thanks for your two cents, it makes me more richer than sum suggest

Mal is right, the fact that the empire or Tilea has not conquered the border kinddoms yet is one of the anachronisms of the setting. (another one is the fact that strangely noone believes in skaven in a world where demons and beastmen are normal) OTOH the old world is much more plausible than bigger Disney-like rpg settings like FR or Dragonlance. So its not a big problem IMO, just a minor nuisance. A good GM can always come up with some explanation (like orcs etc.)

superklaus said:

Tilea is a fractious collection of city-states constantly warring with one another. The land between the city states is crawling with beastmen, bandits, orcs and other horrors. If any one city tried to take the Border Princes one or more of the others would use the opportunity to attack it.

The Empire isn't much better. While a religious crusade might whip up enough fervor to launch an attack on the BPs, the Empire otherwise doesn't seem to have the resources necessary to initiate such a campaign. The Empire of Warhammer isn't the Holy Roman Empire of the real world. It's got all the problems the real one had + beastmen, mutants, chaos cults, greenskins etc etc. It wasn't able to take back Marienburg when it broke away. I don't think it has the manpower or the money to launch a major war of conquest. The Empire's great campaigns tend to be defensive ones (massive forces gathered to defeat a chaos incursion, goblin waaagh or vampire uprising).

As for the Skaven, believing in 'rat-beastmen' isn't an issue. People see a skaven, they assume it is a type of beastman or mutant. They don't think "I didn't see that". No, the 'skaven myth' refers to the idea that there is an entire civilisation of beastmen, a nation of mutant freaks with advanced technology living beneath the cities of the old world. That is what is hard to believe.

macd21 raises an interesting points about the Empire not having the manpower to conquer all of BP.

I think you're right. even with the stability it have enjoyed for the last 2 centuries, the population census of the Empire DOES NOT seem to increase. It rather seems stagnated. But in the real world. overpopulation is in fact a major reason why nations do try to conquer others, like viking era, or the invasion of the mongol horde, or settling in the new world.

could this be another anochronism? no population increase? Are there really so many beastmen attacks, plagues that the population census is kept at check?

But if you factor in increasing population, with the poor provinces, like Ostmark, increased danger, BP might be a tempting place to re-settle. Its farther from the chaos wastes, no taxes, and sparsely populated, and especially if it was supported by the Emperor. than you would have a friendly invasion, and in due time the Empire could legally claim BP. But it could also backfire, with the Imperial colonies of BP being so succesful that they would secede from the Motherland.

But as it is now Macd21 is right, the Empire seems to lack the neccesary manpower, unless they are willling to deplete some of their more poorer provinces.

love the input folks. this is a interesting thread, at least for me.

good gaming

Just a few pennies...

1. I think the for and against points have both been well made here. I have always imagined that the Empire has in the past controlled much more of the Border Princes region (as it used to control the Wasteland and part of Bretonia).

2. The Empire has been in decline (in many ways) for a long time - centuries of anarchy and civil war, the time of 3 Emperors etc... Magnus the Pius may have achieved great things, but he couldn't single-handedly overnight make the Empire a strong, expansionist state again. The Empire's recovery would have been from a pretty low base after all that warfare, disease and economic trouble brought about by both.

3. The fact that the Wasteland broke away from the Empire suggests that the recovery and economic and population growth were not necessarily evenly spread around the Empire, and also that the Empire, even after Magnus' reforms (or perhaps, after Magnus had gone and some of his reforms had been forgotten) the Empire was politically still not very strong. Not strong enough to prevent it happening - and that was fairly recent history.

4. I think the Empire's population probably has been growing. With the exception of the last few years (ie. since GW started having worldwide WFB campaigns every year) the Empire has been relatively stable since Magnus. But the Empire is huge. There is a lot of room for all of the excess population to either expand the village, or clear more forest and build a new village. I don't see there being any real population pressure causing people to leave the Empire and head for the Border Princes.