If you use the option given in the book and make the Inquisitor career path an elite advance, you're also given the option to exchange the trait you chose for your previous career path, with one of the Inquisitor's traits. But there's a problem with that if you transition from Interrogator to Inquisitor: what if you chose "The Psyker's Gift" as your Interrogator trait and subsequently purchased some, or all, of those advances? Can you switch that trait for "Conviction is Strenght" or "Purity Is The Only Defense" and still keep the elite advances you already purchased? Since noting is mentioned in the book about this issue, I thought I'd ask here and hear what you people think.

If they have purchased advances that require that trait I would not allow them to swap it. If they are willing to loose all the XP they spent and the use of all of those talents and never use psyker abilities again, sure they can swap it.

The only talents and traits explicitly mentioned that you may not use if your character changes significantly are ones with requirements you no longer qualify for. While The Psyker's Gift does get you access to those Elite talents, nothing indicates that the trait is a REQUIREMENT to using those talents.

I'd suggest that such an Inquisitor, if he must exchange his trait and does so (is even that called out in the text?), would no longer have access to the elite advancements from The Psyker's Gift, but would still be able to use any psychic talents he purchased. I'd probably treat the psyker as reaching the plateau of his potential, allowing only very rare Elite Advances at very high costs.

Just because one's focus changes doesn't mean all of one's experiences and knowledge on a former subject of focus is suddenly flushed down the drain... An Architect who takes up bread baking is still going to be able to whip out a structural design if necesssary, even if all he's worked on recently is dough and baking apparatus.

IIRC, only the other two Interrogator options can be switched for Inquisitor options. I haven't got my Ascension with me, but I believe it was even stated there.

The only exception that I see listed is Wild Skills and Talents, the second Interrogator ascended trait that explains the way the Skill or Talent (Any) entries work. I stand by my previous post.

Huh. Interesting indeed... in that case, my decision about allowing a switch would hinge on whether the advances from Psyker's Gift can be bought multiple times (IMO, they can be, while Mack says they can't be). If so, they can switch, but have reached their psychic potential and can no longer advance it further.

I don't think they can be bought more than once. The Primaris Psyker only gets 4 Ascended Psychic Powers and 4 Psy Rating +1, so it seems wrong that an Interrogator or Inquisitor can purchase more than that.

When it comes to how many times you can take an elite advance from The Psyker's Gift, it depends on who you ask.

Both of these will be paraphrased slightly, so only important details to the question are maintained. If you don't trust my pruning, I'd suggest searching the forum yourself (I can't for the life of me figure out how the **** I'm supposed to copy/paste links and text, and it frustrates me immensely).

Question:

Psyker's Gift's text allows the selection of several talents as elite advances, but it does not states whether these talents are available in limited or unlimited quantity.

Can an Inquisitor with The Psyker's Fift take a specific talent (for example, the Ascended Psychic Power Talent) more than once? If so, is there a suggested limit, either in overall quantity or by rank?

Answer - Ross Watson said:

There is no limit on the number of Elite Advances you wish to take. See page 43 in Dark Heresy for more details.

Quiller has also asked this question:

Should there be some kind of limit (or level dependent progression) to the max Psi Rating that an Interrogator or Inquisitor with "The Psyker's Gift" can achieve? Currently it reads like there isn't - if they have sufficient XP then they can buy levels at will.

Answer - Mack Martin said:

Advances may only be taken once unless otherwise allowed by your GM and Elite Advances are no different. There are some exceptions but those are clearly defined on the charts.

Well, THAT clears things up.

Anyone want to try to send the question a third time (should we include previous answers given to make them choose like men instead of hiding behind GM approval like children?), see if we get an entirely new answer? I think the biggest problem to getting an answer to this question is that Elite Advances, by description, are entirely GM-controlled anyway, though this PARTICULAR set of Elite Advances comes from a trait, and thus is not subject to GM approval (at least, no more than "Sound Constitution" is to any character, anywhere, and thus really aught not be mentioned unless absolutely necessary).

@UnusualSuspect

Well, THAT clears things up.

As a matter of fact, it does for me. One of the two is listed as Lead Designer of Ascension while the second is nowhere to be found in the credits. Guess who will probably have a better impression of the designer's intent behind the class feature. Thanks for posting the reply, though - I didn't know there was one by Ross.

@xenobiotica

I don't think they can be bought more than once. The Primaris Psyker only gets 4 Ascended Psychic Powers and 4 Psy Rating +1, so it seems wrong that an Interrogator or Inquisitor can purchase more than that.

While you're right about that, an Inquisitor has two balancing mechanisms of his own: firstly, his psychic advances are twice as pricey as those of the Primaris and secondly, he has no access to Fettering. Sure, roll those 15 power dice! Tzeentch will certainly be amused...

"... he has no access to Fettering..."

Are you saying he can't use a power at Fettered level? If so, how do you figure? And if not, exactly what do you mean?

EDIT:

Oh, and about what Ross said, he says to see page 43 in DH for more information, but the section on elite advances on page 43 is all about how elite advances actually work, and how the GM might grant you the option of purchasing specific elite advances, it seems more like he is saying that you can buy all the elite advances your GM is prepared to give you. So it sounds to me as if what he is really saying, is that it's up to each individual GM how many times they can be bought. Note that he said: "There is no limit on the number of Elite Advances you wish to take" and not: "There is no limit on the number of times you can take each Elite Advances."

Mack seems to have understood the question better, and given a clearer answer to the question.

xenobiotica said:

Go re-read the section on psyker abilities in Ascension. It mentions that the Fettered/Unfettered/Push structure is for Primaris Psykers.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Actually, reading through it, the rules reference Psyker and not Primaris Psyker throughout. The only direct reference to the Primaris is in masking their presence in the Warp, but it then goes on again merely referring to generic Psykers for the rules about Fettered/Unfettered/Push . Pages 124 and 125. The example on page 125 does reference a Primaris , but to be fair, they are the likeliest of Psykers amongst the ascended. But it is never stated that only the Primaris may use the rules in Ascension , and honestly, I don't see it as even really being implied to be so.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Um... you alraedy mentioned it the relevant part: "If a psyker survives long enough to be elevated to the rank of Primaris , he learns how to mask his presence from the warp. [Description of Fettering]"

Were they supposed to write Primaris in each single sentence?

Cifer said:

Thing is, though, the Fettered/Unfettered/Push system is in use by Astropaths and Astartes Librarians as well, neither of whom seem to require this extensive amount of experience/power/prestige to learn this technique, and who start off at 2 and 3 Psy Rating, respectively. Sanctioned/Primaris Psykers seem to be the exception here, and only because the Fettered/Unfettered/Push system was bolted onto the existing psychic powers rules.

On the other hand side, Astropaths are generally noted as being safer than normal psykers due to their soulbinding while Librarians have that Emperor's Chosen Angels of Death thing going for them.

Yes, it's more or less obvious FFG didn't like the BI psy system and abolished it wherever they could, but the Ascension section still reads like Fettering is the (among DH characters) exclusive purview of Primaris psykers.

Cifer said:

I believe it can be argued that any psyker that survives into Ascension-level play would be capable of being "elevated to the rank of Primaris", and thus has survived long enough to qualify for the rank of Primaris, even if that is not the rank they are eventually bestowed.

If they wanted this a Primaris-only ability, they shouldn't have been so coy about telling us. Fluff text should not a rules argument make.

Just thought I should share what I garnered from Mack Martin concerning the conflicting reports.

My question:

"In Ascension, both the Interrogator and Inquisitor can potentially gain the ascended trait "The Psyker's Gift" which grants the option of various Pysker talents as elite advances.

I have asked this question in the past:

(See previous post)

Why would I bother you again, having already gotten my answer? Well, another person asked, in essence, the same question:

(See previous post)

There seems to be either a contradiction or an incomplete answer for one of us (probably me).

Now on page 43 is simply an explanation of Elite Advances, which are advances thhat require special GM dispensation to take. By definition, they seem to be bound by GM inclinations.

If GM fiat is the only applicable rubric for application of Elite Advances from alternative sources like The Psyker's Gift? Given the use of the term Elite Advance, what actual mechanical benefit does The Psyker's Gift provide (given that GM fiat is the only thing keeping ANYONE from taking an Elite Advance), aside from a convenient suggested XP cost for players to present to GMs?

Essentially, my questions are thus:

1) How do the elite advances available to Interrogators and Inquisitors with the Psyker's Gift work?

2) May they be taken more than once?

3) Is there a standard set of rules for interacting with those elite advances to fall back on, or does the use of this talent require house rules to be used?

Mack Martin's answer:

Hi Geoff,

I just wanted to take a moment to clear up "The Psyker's Gift". You probably had subtly different questions or one of us misread the question (or focused on a different part).

GM Fiat is, as always, the most important guideline. A GM Is free to change/adapt the rules so that the story he is telling goes well.

So to clarify further, I would only allow a character to take Elite Advances granted by the Psyker's Gift once per rank after switching over. The talent is intended to allow Inquisitors to take Ascended Psychic powers, which involves a great deal of simplifying, so I would allow them to be taken as many times as possible during the "switch to Ascension" process. After that I would restrict how often the character could taken them.

In the process for purchasing advances players technically have to check with their GM for permission for all advances, even those in their advancement tables. Most players don't, and most GM's assume anything on the tables is fine. Which is the intent. The abilitiels presented under "The Psyker's Gift" shouldn't technically be elite advances. Elite advances are technically advances your GM allows that are not allowed by the Career. As the Pysker's Gift allows something as part of the career they should be treated as normal advances. This is something that may need to be cleared up later in errata, I'll have to do some research.

Hopefully this helps!

In essence: Ask your GM. If you're GM, do what you feel is fair. Hope that helps?