Hello!

I have some miscellaneous, nitty-gritty questions that should hopefully challenge you! Answers or speculations are appreciated!

1) I assume that once rune-locked doors are unlocked, they are no longer considered “rune-locked”, and thus normal monsters can close and shut them?

2) Can power dice be added AFTER a rerolled dodge or aimed attack? If so, can just those new power dice be targeted by a dodge/aim for a reroll?

3) I know that the FAQ says Dark Charm targets the hero like a “figure”, so Command from your monsters works on him. But is the charmed hero also considered a “monster”, so that he can be targeted by Rage, or is he just a figure making an “attack”, and thus can only be targeted by other cards of yours like “Aim” (which say playable on an attack)?

4) This one was probably answered somewhere. If a large monster is over a pit, can a figure in the pit get out, or must that figure simply whale on the monster’s underbelly to get him to move?

5) In a forum I saw someone write that “heroes at the same space may claim an item before the dropped item would be lost in the dungeon as per rules.” Was this rule added somewhere? Would it be fair to implement this in the base game?

6) Finally, the one I care the most about: Web and power dice! I noticed the explanation of WEB was substantially changed in Road to Legend! You still try to roll a power die for each web token on you, but now it also reads: "plus one additional black power die for each die of Melee trait the hero has (the number of bonus power dice rolled when the hero makes a melee attack).... Monsters caught in a web remove tokens the same way, except that they roll one black power die for each web token, plus one extra black power die for each space they occupy beyond the first."

This made me wonder how everyone plays it in their base game, or at least in their non-campaign games. Do you use the new Web definition, or you use the original one where you only get one power die, no matter what hero you are? Basically, do you see something about webs in Rtl and beyond that requires this nerf, or do you think it was simply meant to correct the already very strong power of webs, and should be applied to base game-only games as well? I’ve only played 6 games of Descent, but it seems to me that Webs are very powerful, and perhaps worse, quite frustrating for the player who cannot move his character on repeated turns—especially if that character is one who cannot move much to begin with (aka, the tank)!

Thanks!

--prof. joe

1) No, rune-locked doors are always rune-locked. They can only be closed by named monsters, or heroes with the appropriate key.

2) No, power dice can only be added before the reroll. See the FAQ, page 7.

3) I don't know of any grounds for counting a hero as a monster while under the effects of Dark Charm. However, even if the hero did count as a monster, you still could not play Rage, because the hero is not being activated, it is only making an attack.

4) Figures are not allowed to enter an enemy figure's space or to end their movement in the same space as an allied figure, so this situation cannot occur. The only things that can move "over" you while you're in a pit are rolling boulders (WoD expansion) and crushing walls (AoD expansion).

5) No, that's not a rule. And I think it's extremely unlikely to ever matter except in highly contrived situations or as a way to give items to another hero without paying the normal movement cost. If you really want to make transferring items around easier for the heroes, there are much simpler house rules that would accomplish that.

6) I don't think there's any obvious reason that Web needs to work differently in an advanced campaign, but the advanced campaign rules make seemingly arbitrary changes to a bunch of different abilities and no one seems to know why.

Web has always been a rather common target for house rules, both before and after Road to Legend was published, and I think I saw the RtL rule proposed by some people as a house rule before RtL came out. On the other hand, Web is only on one monster in the game, and it's close to being the only thing that makes that monster worth using, so nerfing it is kind of questionable balance-wise. Furthermore, the chief complaint about Web is generally that it has a chance of keeping a hero trapped for many turns in a row, not that it's too powerful in general, so it's not clear to me that this change is really addressing the key problem.

Thanks for the excellent, well-explained answers! The only element I see to the Web rule that "works" is that a melee tank (who is already slow) will not be as often targetted by web (or at least, the web will not last as long). So it influences the OL to spread the love to the other classes. But I agree that web is the only good thing about Master Spiders, or spider spawns in general.

prof. joe

ahh, Antistone's there first. I think all of these are in agreement...

ProfJoe said:

1. No. Runelocked doors are always runelocked. To open (or close) them you must fulfill the requirements, regardless of whther they have been opened or closed before. There is nothing in the rules that changes this after they have been opened once.
You seem to be thinking of a runelock as a chain which gets smashed. In fact it works better as a simple locking device. Either you have the key or our don't. The door to Moria in LotR would be a classic example. It is runelocked and the key is a simple word. If you have the word it can be opebed (opens itself actually), if not, you are out of luck. I imagine that door was used many time in the distant past, but the runelock still works 1000s of years later and the door is still locked.

2. FAQ pg7
Q: Is the effect of the overlord’s “Dodge” card that the hero’s attack completely misses, or that the overlord can force the hero to re-roll dice rolled for the attack, as with the hero dodge orders?
A: The “Dodge” card allows the overlord to force re-rolls. It does not allow more dice to be added after the re-roll. Once the dice are rolled, any fatigue may be spent to add power dice. Once all dice are done being rolled, the Overlord may play the dodge card. Once the card is played, no more dice may be added

3. He is not a monster (though he is friendly to monsters). You can't play Rage because it triggers on activation, and he isn't being activated. You can play Aim because it triggers when the OL declares an attack, and you are declaring an attack.

4. The monster can't move into the pit space if the hero is there anyway, so your question is moot. It is still a space containing another (enemy) figure, so only a flying monster may enter it and a flying monster may not end it's movement there. Note that a figure in a pit can see all spaces adjacent to the pit (FAQ pg2) so there is no need for the hero to be using a guard order as the monster flys overhead (an attack affects a space, so a hero hitting a monster in his own space also affects himself).

5. No. People make mistakes in forums (me included) and sometimes state local houserules that they have used so long they have forgotten are actually houserules. In this case, there is no such rule.

6. Advanced Campaigns changed several abilities. Those changes only apply to ACs, unfortunately for you in this case. Later vanilla expansions (ToI) goes back to the original versions of these abilities. You are still free to make houserules for your own games. Personally I think there are better ways to modify web than the AC way, but that is another subject and rather subjective. FWIW we play original web on the rare occasions in which we play vanilla. It is a rare ability and does little enough often enough that gutting it from have a reasonable chance of doing anything important is harsh for the OL. And the Web treasures are very weak combat-wise.

Regarding 2) This was only clarified for the Dodge card, see the FAQ as quoted. It might be not too much of a stretch to assume it is valid for a hero's Dodge order as well (only relevant in RtL outdoor encounters, since the OL can add extra power dice to attacks there).

But is it really the same with an Aim card (in RtL encounters) or an Aim order?

The analogy is clear in the case of the Aim order, yet it needs clarification IMO.

In the case if the Aim card, the power dice have to be added after the card is played (contradicting the analogue FAQ ruling for the Dodge card), since it is played before any dice are rolled. It is not clear whether extra power dice can be added before or after the re-roll or even at both times.

Parathion said:

It is, as you note, clearly different with an Aim, since the Aim card is played before the roll is made.

For a hero adding dice (or an OL in an AC outdoor encounter), there is nothing to say he can't add before the Aim reroll, and nothing to say he can't add after the Aim reroll either. Obviously, anything added before the reroll gets the benefit of the reroll. It is arguable either way whether anything added after the reroll gets the benefit. It could be argued that since this allows him to re-roll any number of dice after rolling for the attack once he has rerolled his first set of dice (including anything added before the reroll) once, he can't reroll anything added later (that would be a reroll and then a reroll). But it can also be argued other ways.

I might add this to the list of next-FAQ questions unless someone comes up with something stronger.

The FAQ says that fatigue may be spend to add power dice, and then the overlord may play a Dodge card after all dice have been rolled. I think the best way to read this is that the opportunity to play a Dodge card occurs after the last opportunity to spend fatigue to add dice: that is, if you declare you're done adding dice and ask the overlord if he wants to Dodge, and he says "no", you still can't add any more dice, even though he didn't play the Dodge card. The reason you can't add more dice is because of the sequence, not because the card was played.

But we also know that the opportunity to play a Dodge card must occur before you reroll your dice due to an aim order, because an aim and a dodge cancel out; once you've made the aim re-roll, it is no longer possible for the attack to be dodged, and therefore it is no longer possible to play a Dodge card.

So we know that your last chance to spend fatigue comes before the overlord's chance to play a Dodge, and the overlord's chance to play a Dodge comes before you reroll the dice due to an aim. Therefore, you can't spend fatigue to add dice after using an aim to re-roll . Any other conclusion leads to a contradiction.

Well, there are no opportunities for the heros to play Dodge cards when the OL plays an Aim in an AC outdoor encounter and wants to add power dice before and/or after the re-roll, so your reasoning falls a bit short.

Parathion said:

Still, it is a solid conclusion. And if we are going to take the FAQ ruling on the dodge card as applicable to the dodge order, then this conclsuion would be equally applicable to the Aim order.

Done deal AFAICS.
(I should have figured it out myself but my head is full of large monster movement issues for re-FAQing right now...)

Parathion said:

Not Dodge cards, but they may have a Dodge Order in play. Activating a Dodge Order is not mandatory, the hero can hold out if he wants to. Admittedly there's little reason not to use it if you have it up, since it doesn't go away after one use, but if, for example, the OL rolled a miss on the initial roll, the hero is not required to ask to him re-roll anything (even an inconsequential die like a power die.)

Why would the OL add more dice to an attack that's targetting a hero with a blatant Dodge Order on him, you ask? Well, granted it's a highly situational decision, but maybe it's worth packing some more dice in there in the hopes that the re-roll won't come up X. The point is the mechanics still work the same way, even if the circumstances that bring them into play don't come up nearly as often going the other way. WHEN they come up, they work the same.

No, they don't. If the hero has a Dodge order up and the OL plays Aim, both cancel each other and the OL proceeds with rolling attack dice, potentially adding power dice in RtL encounters.

If the hero has no Dodge order up and the OL plays Aim, what is the mechanic then, and based on which ruling? The one in the FAQ regarding a Dodge card? Won't work.

It won't hurt to include it in the new FAQ question set, along with the clarification whether the Dodge order works the same as the Dodge card FAQ answer.

Parathion said:

This seems incredibly nitpicky, even to me. Extra dice are added before a dodge card is played, which must happen before a re-roll. Dice cannot be added after the card, so they clearly cannot be added after something that happens after the card. As aim and dodge re-rolls cancel each other, it seems only natural that they would have occured at the same point in the attack sequence. If Aim came before adding dice but Dodge came after, then why would they cancel each other?

Parathion said:

I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. I'm still new. This situation would only come up if it was an Lt encounter right? OL cards can't be played by other encounters?

So, Parathion, hypothetically , if heroes had a feat card that worked like Dodge - i.e. play after an attack is rolled to dodge that attack - you would require a separate FAQ answer for the overlord's Dodge and the heroes' Dodge before you believed they worked the same way and with the same timing?

Because if such a hypothetical card would work the same way for heroes that it does for the OL, with respect to adding dice, then that means that the turn sequence has to be the same, and so the OL can't add dice after a re-roll even though the heroes don't actually have that card (just like the heroes can't add dice after an aim re-roll even if the OL removed all the Dodge cards from his deck with treachery).

Of course, I don't play advanced campaigns and I'm not familiar with the rules for the overlord adding power dice to an attack. If the rules are completely different from the rules for a hero spending fatigue to add dice, then it's entirely possible it's not subject to the same restrictions, even if the heroes had a Dodge card. But if we're starting with the assumption that those mechanics for adding dice need to be used at the same time in the attack sequence, I don't see where the ambiguity comes in.

We need a separate entry (or at least an addition to the existing Dodge entry) for how to handle adding power dice before/after Aim rerolls, not Dodge rerolls. The rules are completely silent on adding power dice before/after Aim rerolls. There were other wild arguments about even tinier issues in the past.

Your hypothetical Feat card an the mechanic involved is just that - hypothetical. There is no evidence that it would work with the same, a similar or a completely different mechanic against an Aim.

Btw, it would be a nice thing to apologize for stating something as solid (yes, I am looking at you, Antistone), which turns out to be just analogous thinking, which proved to fail in some other cases in the past.

@DescentNYC: Yes, this is only relevant for the OL in RtL Lieutenant encounters.

Parathion said:

Why?

If the timing of Aim re-rolls is not exactly the same as the timing of Dodge re-rolls, why would they cancel each other?

We know they do cancel each other, so I cannot imagine any conceivable reason they would have different timing. That would just be adding unnecessary complexity to the game in order to accomplish nothing whatsoever.

Please read my statement again, the rules are SILENT on that. Anything written here is pure analogy and/or speculation.

The mutual cancellation of Dodge and Aim has nothing to do with the question whether power dice can be added before or after an Aim re-roll.

If you don´t require the clarification (or simply don´t understand why other people do), please stop telling others from asking for it (which you didn´t do specifically, but implicated it).

I'm not telling you the rules are definitive. And I'm not telling you not to ask. I'm just wondering why there would be any difference between aim and dodge re-rolls.

I understand that there might be a loophole in the rules, depending on how they're read, which allows an interpretation that aim and dodge could have different timing. But is there really any reason to think that alternate reading is intended?

There are about a million loopholes in the rules, but most are not worth exploring, because nobody's ever thought for a second that the loophole could possibly be intentional. (The omission of any rules saying you can't walk through walls is a commonly cited example.)

Something I'll add that's in the base rules that doesn't seem to be mentioned. JitD pg. 14:

Aim: Before the hero rolls dice for an attack, he may use the aim order to declare that he is making an aimed attack. This allows him to re-roll any number of dice after rolling for the attack (including any dice showing the “miss” result). The hero must keep the second result.

Dodge: A hero that has placed a dodge order may, when attacked, force his attacker (usually the overlord player) to re-roll any number of dice rolled for the attack. The hero player may only do this once for each attack, and must accept the second result.

If you are adding dice after re-rolls, then you are not keeping / accepting the second result anymore.

This always meant to me the second result per die, meaning that you cannot switch back to the first result of any die. Also, dice that are not selected for a re-roll won´t produce a second result and stay in with their first one.

In addition, it would be consistent with the quoted rules if the dice added after a re-roll would also get a re-roll, so that you would generate a "second result" for these as well. Highly unlikely that it will be ruled that way, but nonetheless a clarification would be nice.