Mal,

I've had a strong reaction (too strong perhaps). My fault .
Ok, that's enough.

I AM ABOUT TO DO A VIDEO ON THE SUBJECT CHECK OUT MY RPG YOUTUBE SITE

OUTSIDERS68

REGARDS

Yay, finally another video. I do so enjoy watching them. It sbeen a long time since the last but I completely understand why. Gratz btw.

-L

All four of my friends have become huge fans and are reluctant to go back to any other system. They've been everywhere: DnD, Star Wars (West End Games AND D20) World of Darkness, WFRP 1st and 2nd edition, Rifts, Call of Cthulhu etc...). So they've got a good perspective on it all.

Example: "If the game doesn't have a Perform a Stunt action, with legitimate in game effects that are fun, then I'm not playing it."

Yeah I know that GMs can be flexible and inventive, but the very fact that this RPG has an actual in-game action for this is just about the most simple, straight forward way that I can explain why we love it so.

Necrozius said:

Another game that does this "perform a stunt" thing rather well and in an even simpler way is Dragon Age by Green Ronin. It is loosely based on the D20 system but uses 3D6 instead of a D20. If you roll a double, you check a "perform a stunt" table with a number of options for stunts. There is a little bit more to it than that, but it's pretty basic. I really like what they did with Dragon Age, but I would say Warhammer offers much, much more in the way of possibilities and customisation and especially the creative thinking that is so encouraged by the symbolic dice.

The stance system and the party cards are two other things that really add character to WFRP, in my opinion. They are mechanical devices that encourage players to think about their characters' motivations and demeanour. I love that.

Necrozius said:

You have lovely friends that totaly grasp the concept of warhammer, and find it to their exact tasting. My friends on the other hand...are still reluctant to accept it as the holy grail of rpgs (and maybe that's too much to expect). I play with a large group 6 players, and they are roughly divided 50% between enjoying the game, 50% don't like the rules too much, but still enjoying the game.

like your group we have played a ton of games and systems. One of my players in fact was quite adamant about his feeling towards the new edition and left the group (we recently got an replacement, so we are back to 6 players). Another find it too taxing, and means that all the moving of tokens and chips arround hinder him to immerse with his character (actor style). But still I've seen him having a blast. I think it will take time before he warms to the game.

But now, 4 sessions into TGs storm it looks better, and my players get too see more and more how a great game WFRP really is. And I think by the time we have played EoN they will be pretty close to "this is the holy grail".

But it have come at a great expense for me, I had to coach them, motivate them tremendously, and nearly used every trick a GM has in his sleeves to make some of them come arround. Luckily I have a player that have been of great assistance, he took time to learn the rules fully and, helped others make characters, and explain the fundamentals. He is almost my assistant GM. He took that part when seeing I was struggling with some of the players attitude. And bless him for that.

But the real door opener, was when I decided we should collaborate when it comes to rule decisions. And because of the openess of the rules that is possible. Now most players take an active stance and come up with suggestions when we are stuck with the game mechanics.

The holy grail?...maybe for my group. for me? DEF.

Honestly we have bought the Core Box, Adventurer's Kit and GM Kit and... this is all but Holy Grail.

The game is an all-and-nothing miscellanea.
PC are a little shallow and limited, combats are so distant from believable situations that I seldom can imagine the action, dice, imho, add little or nothing to the narrations.
Difficulties, encounters, etc., aren't well calibrated or tought,

Actions cards really limits options and add rigidity to the player's actions while leaving hole in non-tactical situations.
Other RPGs accomplish more with much less and more fluently. What I see in WGRP v3 is a RPG with a boardgame template casted on it.

There is more.
The sheer numbers of "gadgets" compared to the thin and narrowed contents of world informations lean too much towards extreme marketing rather than quality assuarance.

Really? It's very surprising to me that you experience it that way, but I guess you can't argue with personal experiences. I suppose it just doesn't suit your group's style of play. It works great for us, though.

By the way, you may enjoy Dragon Age:) Here I am, advertising for that game again! Personally, I would prefer Warhammer, but again: to each his own.

DeathFromAbove said:

Wow, harsh DFA, but everyone is entitled to their opinion

One serious question for you though. Painful though it might be, would you mind elucidating the 'PCs are limited', and your problems with the dice and combat? In general the experience (again your mileage may vary) of most people (and the game's strongest selling point) is that the dice add wildly to narration and combat is fast paced and visceral. And from a more personal perspective, I find most of the characters to be far less shallow, and more believable than your standard DnD adventurer template.

Although we should probably start a new post - I'm just hoping that maybe some of the folks here with a different experience can maybe throw you a few tips to help you guys see what we're seeing.

If not ... may your dreams be sweet ^_~

DeathFromAbove said:

Yep. Same experience here. To ask if this game could be "the holy grail of rpg" is really offending to all those millions of players since the 1980 who are fully satisfied with playing the "traditional way" without all these unnecessary expensive FFG toys und using just some books and dice. I would say if a holy grail of rpgs exists (which I doubt regarding the many different playing styles) then the designers of WFRP 3 are not even remotely near it.

Well i have played them all since the early eighties simply ticks all my box's..

Will another game come along in time and knock it of most likely.

But this game breaks new ground and makes game's companies think about rpg's in a new way especially in the current market...

boggle said:

Exactly where does this game break new ground? It may borrow, mix and add a few things, or even put things in different words/devices, but nothing is new or awe inspiring.

Truth be told, it may be the Holy Grail of RPGs, especially is you abide my the notion that the Holy Grail is different to each person who seeks it out. For me, its a system that can handle high end characters as well as lower end characters in the same system and rules. Which for me is MEGs.

WFRP 3E is not it for me. If it is for you, then congrats but I think we all need to put it into perspective and we each will like something for some reason, dislike it for another and see some items as new and original and others as just brought back from extinction or obscurity.

superklaus said:

I'm not sure why you'd say that. Its similar to saying that everyone playing 4th edition DnD and enjoying it is jumping on the graves of Gary Gygax and all first edition players. It's beyond ludicrous.

I saw WFRP 1st (in french actually...) a long time ago. I picked up WFRP 2nd but couldn't get any of my friends to play it, and I've picked up most of its books recently from bargain bins at ~$5 a book, as they were sitting there for years. WFRP 3rd I'm personally responsible for 3 separate groups starting (I ran some demo's) and its spreading amongst my friends like wildfire.

I have no clue why anyone would see this as an insult of any sort. We have all played "the traditional way" games plenty of times, and find this superior. Its not to say you're somehow wrong to dislike it, but think about your 'traditional way' games. They use square maps, minis, markers, figs, terrain possibly etc. Its not so different than what WFRP3 has done. Just all packaged and accounted for together.

WFRP2 is still out there. If you want to play it the new books aren't changing the old texts any. They're still sitting on shelves. This is a completely new game. If its not for you and your group - have fun with the old stuff. This is in no fashion an insult. I PERSONALLY feel its a better game for a hundred reasons. And I don't think that's insulting anyone from the 80's.

Before anyone answers this question, it might be an idea for everyone to agree on what the 'holy grail of rpgs' actually is. I would suggest that 'my favourite game' or 'the best game I have ever played' or even 'the most innovative development in rpgs in decades' are not definitions of a holy grail.

A far for meaningful definition is probably something like 'the game that can be used to create and play any character in any setting, quickly and simply' might actually be better since it's something that would have value for all roleplayers.

As for WFRP3, well, it seems to be a perfectly decent and effective gaming system, but it's no better or worse than a dozen others, just different, and as such will have its fans and its destractors. I've said it before and I'll say it again, but it doesn't matter what **** system you use to run WFRP, because in itself a system does not make a good game - good games are made by like-minded GMs and players with enthusiasm and creativity, drawing on well-writen and properly developed setting material with interesting ideas.

Cheers

Sparrow

James Sparrow said:

Who does it serve?

I think a better question is whether this game causes more hyperbolic internet discussions.

Doc, the Weasel said:

'Not sure, but based on my own experiences, it's definitely up there with D&D 4th ed for generating sarcasm and eye rolling in fellow gaming nerds.

The things I've been labeled for liking this game... wowzers.

Doc, the Weasel said:

win!

I was really hoping we were beyond this stage...

To me (IMO) the system is very inspirational and it makes me want to play RPG's even more as I feel (IMO) that it is very not limiting (you probably can't say that, but you know what I mean) and because it is low magic and risky. I think (IMO) that it simulates the gritty mediveal setting better than any RPG system I've stumbled upon before IMO. I'm not particualrly intrerested in the Warhammer setting as I tire a bit of all the traditional races (dwafs, elves, orcs etc.) and find it a bit too silly sometimes, IMO. I intend to use this system as a base for playing in my own fantasy setting, at some point.

Note this is all just my opinion

-L

Peacekeeper_b said:

Peacekeeper, I've valued your opinions since the introduction of WHFRP 3e, but I do feel you are placing a very high bar here and berating WHFRP for falling short of it. WHFRP has taken developments and ideas from recent years, and used it to design a game from the ground up as a new complete package. Possibly i would call it a new generation - and like all new generations, built on the groundwork of the previous generation. It's made me re-address the way I approach role-playing games in the way that Judge Dredd did back in ... er .. 1986? & Hero Wars did in ... er .. 2001?

To match your quote, I could equally say back in the 70's we had Wargames, we had Fantasy and we had Amateur Dramatics ... so where did this Dungeons & Dragons break new group?

First I'll not mixing the setting with the system.
I'm talking about the system itself, the mechanics. Saying the the mechanics is low magic isn't correct, imho.
The Old World isn't V3 and vice versa.

When I say that players characters are a little shallow I mean that they have little "personality".
Few skills, limited talents and actions cards, a "short lifespan" in growth.
I'm accustomed to a HarnMaster, the Burning Wheel and many others (enough with DnD ... ). I have PC's sheet with 5/6 pages of skills, perks, qualities and deficiencies, family background and physical/mental limitations and/or deformities.

In Harnmaster there is fatigue but...hey, it's used as you like, it's so open ended that you can really create dramatic effects as you desire... blending combat/narration seamlessly. I can create whatever injury I desire in whatever manner I desire without a tons of cards... it's all in the core system.
Magic and priests... deep mechanical differences. They really feel different ... and I'm just talking about the "rules".

Combats, I like very believable and earth-based situations. I like that players can use their real-world experiences in the game. In v3 I've found many tidbits that detract from the immerions. Recharges, actions, cards... abstract movement, minions that acts like one ... leaving tactical maneuvering alone, in a corner.

This is personal opinion, of course, and can differ from group to group.

monkeylite said:

Do you mean:

(A) who does a definition of 'holy grail of rpgs' serve?

(B) the question of 'who it serves' is part if the definition of 'holy grail of rpgs'?

or

© it's a waste of time asking a bunch of roleplayers because they're congenitally incapable of looking at anything objectively, and would far rather bicker about rules than get on and do something creative with the setting?

Cheers

Sparrow

James Sparrow said:

I mean asking who it serves is the key to finding the holy grail in some of the arthurian legends. And that it could be (B), also.

monkeylite said:

My arthurian is patchy, so I missed the reference, sorry. As for B, I think the answer has to be that it serves everyone - universality has to be the key.

Cheers

Sparrow