I have played them all over the years however something always pulls me back to warhammer. Thinking about this for a moment throws up one simple answer the world. Its so easy to get into i mean the whole premise for the cultures instantly put you into character better than anything else in my view...

Add to this the career system and the way these instantly get a player in to character helps...

Now my main group is very system driven and warhammer gets them away from there min max meta game approach it seems to get people roleplaying without even trying...

Now the new system for me hits the holy grail for rpg's it actually makes fatigue and stress work it encourages party play allows the dm to push the tension it has it all. Sure i lost faith a little because i have a large group but with the obvious ffg support and the fact that they listen to there biggest critics us i am massively impressed. When they made the move to put this game into hard back version i was back on board i had never given up hope that would address my issues but not in my wildest dreams could i imagine those issues will be buried...

So is this game the holy grail i t for one think it is at a time when most companies have copied each other it broke the mold and put a product out that is superb in so many ways...

now all it needs is a map a mega campaign and some nice finishing touches and it could be what all rpgers are looking for...

i for one am now collecting everything i can and see this as the system/game that defines rpg's.

My respect to all at ffg.....

In a word. No.

But we are all free to have our own personal McGuffins.

I agree.
This game is amazing!

Don't expect old fashioned RPG with billions of tables etc. Now everything is on cards, tokens etc.

This is not another RPG system, this is something between. A new brand of games.
And every one who loves board games will love this edition!

I used to play (and master) 1st and 2nd edition more than 7 years.
But right now have less time and play mostly board games.
So that edition for me is perfect!

BUT ... what kills this game is number of add-ons and their price!
In my country You can't buy it in the shop, You need to order it via internet.
The cost of all expansions and core set available right now is almost equal to the monthly salary of many people here!!
(and more new add-ons are announced)

And still i'm expecting few things...
- more magic! (higher ranks spells)
- more adventures / campaigns
- more actions, talents, wounds items and locations
- more blessings (ok, they are coming soon)
- mutations, diseases etc.
and
- CHARACTER KEEPER for next player!!!!
- GM box, to store and transport all this stuff!

Agreed. The convergence of the Warhammer setting (wthout the Storm of Chaos!), tactile nature, ability to offload rules onto players, and modular create-mini-game-systems-on-the-fly rules, it's gamer crack for me. It makes it hard to run or play other games, I as I can't help but compare them (often unfavorably) to WFRP 3.

It defines and nails everything I look for in an RPG.

morskittar said:

Gamer Crack is definately a better name for it then The Holy Grail.

I don't know about 'Holy Grail of RPGs'.

This game is a HUGE breath of fresh air. When everyone is trying to ape/clone 3e/4e/CthulhuPercentile systems it boldly says: 'No. Think outside the box. Do more with your RP". It is certainly the game I will always reach for to get a quick fantasy fix (It definitely is #1 on my chart for that), but to be the 'holy grail' of all RPGs it needs to cover more settings in my opinion.

Also, because it IS so bold and so innovative and so outside the box, it could do with a little more polish. The classes could transition a little more smoothly (mostly I'm glaring at you oh talent slots). There are some inconsistencies on the cards. A few stumbles in Story vs Encounter transitions. Most people point at this and say 'AHA! Got you!' but I see it as the price to pay to play something interesting and innovative rather than worn smooth and dull by 10-20+ years of iterations.

So is it the best fantasy game I've played? For sure. The flexibility, the power of choice, the synergy of story - is amazing.

Holy Grail? Not so sure ^_~

I thank all who have commented so far...

Your thoughts are fair....

I certainly think at the very least it certainly pushes the market to reach further than it has done before and for that i will always be very supportive..

Cheers one and all...

I was very pleased FFG took the opportunity to give a real, modernising overhaul to the game mechanics. A lot of what they have done I like a lot. But I do have some problems with the game / setting still.

Some of the high fantasy stuff does bother me. I think FFG have done a pretty good job of keeping it ambiguous enough though, that people like me can ignore the stuff we don't like, and people who like their fantasy higher 'swords & sorcery' can have that too. So I think it's been handled pretty well.

The second point ties in to the first. Compared to 1st and 2nd edition, the background and setting material is fairly thin on the ground. Now, I don't care about Bretonia, Kislev, running Skaven as PCs, etc. I'm not bothered that they're not included. But FFG haven't come close to matching the depth of detail and description of (for example) the political institutions of the Empire, the lives of people in the towns and countryside etc that some of the old supplements (and core products) did. What FFG have released I'm pretty pleased with - partly because of the ambiguity. And I'd rather have what FFG have produced than a 'goody Aruthurian Bretonian nights save the day' book that gave me a lot of high fantasy non-sensical 'setting' information that I actively dislike.

While I like some of the new mechanics (and I'm a sucker for collecting nice looking components), some of them create too much clutter for my liking. Particularly as a GM I don't really want any cards, counters, chits, trackers etc. I want all of the information I need in books / on sheets. For the PCs, I see the value much more in having all of the different things be tracked, but even so, I feel there is just a little too much. I like the stance system, the action cards, the talent cards, the stress and fatigue, the fortune points and the idea of a party sheet (even if the tension tracker doesn't work very well). But I would like to have most / all of the player information consolidated on one or two sheets, rather than spread across loads of cards and tokens, if that was possible.

Lastly, and this is not a criticism of WFRP, but is why I was pleased FFG gave the game a thorough overhaul, and that is that there quite a few other good games / systems out there. None of them are perfect. Some of them may be overall a mediocre system despite having one or two really great gems, but there are really clever, elegant RPG mechanics in existence and for me, some of the 1st/2nd ed rules felt pretty old-fashioned. Not bad, but made obsolete by newer, better things.

A sneaky shout-out to Unknown Armies' sanity system and their madness meters!

ArSaghar said:

Arsaghar where are you from? I am from the filthy rich Norway, yet I find some of the WFRP products a bit costly. So I get your problem. Still its a luxury problem, afterall its our own fault for picking such expensive hobbies. In my country you can get free help with gaming addiction from the state, maybe I should apply to get help with purchasing of these games... the government sponsor my game addiction....(at least that is my understanding of how the "gaming addiction" help works).

Good gaming

Peacekeeper_b said:

I just can't stop playing!

Hell, tonight's session I stumbled across a way of using a communal pool of corruption tokens to represent the party's gradual befuddlement by a greater daemon of Tzeentch. The amount of tension as the players watched those horrible little tokens build and be removed from the party sheet was awesome. It gave them the cues to realize that the act of trying to deceive or debate the daemon was a loosing process. It was a communal creation of a ruleset understood by the whole group.

As for the cost? A friend of mine keeps trying to get me into golf. It keeps gaming in perspective. Ours is a cheap hobby, in the grand scheme of things.

there is no real cost when you divide the hours into the outlay.

I like the game, it would take a gun to my head to get me back to running certain other well-known table top RPG's and it's unlikely I would even play in them - but "holy grail". No.

A good blend of innovations with lots of flavour (whether it's the blend or the ideas that are innovative I'll leave to game historians).

That's like there being a holy grail of board games or card games. You like poker, I like bridge etc. Tastes vary. For pure storytelling fun In a Wicked Age is my holy grail of moment. For table top fun Warhammer is it. If I got chance to play them, Dr Who Adventures in Time and Space could be it for light sci fi fun and Burning Wheel for intense character driven fun.

Mal Reynolds said:

Yeah, Norway is rich. Very rich comparing to us.
I'm from Poland.

Here addictions are not healed. You have problem? Great, it's your problem.
Sell your car, house, be homeless ... governament doesn't care Your live or problems.
Doesn't matter - drag, alcohol or game addicted.

I'm not paid badly, so I can afford.
To be honest, I spend almost all my free money for games, and all my free time.
I'm adult single without kids, so it is nice for me to have such a passion.

And playing games (board, card, RPG) give You a lot of friends, so You don't fell lonely.

I have everything what FFG made in Warhammer world (Invasion, Chaos itOW, RPG etc) and be buying more, but please (everyone in FFG) keep in mind, that Your products ARE expensive for non-us citizens, and You HAVE many faithful fans all around the World - CARE FOR US!

Mal Reynolds said:

Sorry but I can't refrain from posting... this is one of the most stupid, insensitive and nonsensical replay I've ever read on a post.

You are discriminating who writes and posts on a public board based on "bank account".

"afterall its our own fault for picking such expensive hobbies"

Tell me Raynolds, do you like a sunny and warm summer, with a pristine refreshing sea?
Ohhh, it's your own fault if you like south countries, with good weather, sun, little rain where you can dress t-shirt and sandals 11 months an year.

I don't know why any moderetor deleted such a stupid sentence (and posts).

FFG if this is your "average" customer ... and ... good way to go Reynolds, from filthy rich Norway ...

DeathFromAbove said:

I'm confused. Are you angry because you think he's being classist? ... capitalist?

Or is it because he's from Norway? (I kid!)

I can't care less if he's capitalist, communist or whatever.

We are discussing a product on forum... and every opinion is equal, not based on how much money you get or how much your state help peoples to be addicted to "luxury" goods.

You buy the product (as obivous someone do this with some sacrifice) and express your opinion. You can disagree but it's not less relevant if I have a thin bank account... quite the contrary.
From a purely quality point of view, someone that must carefully what to buy, will be more "demanding" from the selected products.
So, to make a long story short, only some very shallow guy could write such a post.

Mal Reynolds was clearly being tongue-in-cheek and humerous. I don't see anything in his post that justifies such an over the top, hateful reaction!

This is really the first time I find that "this is an irony" icon to be of great value.

I have not read Mal's post as an insult, I have read it as a joke. On himself, actually, since he is stating that he is some form of game addicted, to be buying games that he thinks are expensive. And I live in Brazil, and I don't earn a lot of money. Our currency is weaker than dollars and I risk being charged importation taxes that are really abusive.

Then again, I usually like Mal's posts, so I'm picturing a nice guy, and thus I'm not reading him with an enemy image in my head. Now I'm actually worried about him reading the reply as an offense.

I'm also worried about what upset you, DeathFromAbove, not the argument, but which of your values that you understood as being hurt by Mal's post. I don't find that arguments help much when people are feeling hurt or bad or anything. But to try to know what is happening to the other person sure helps.

DeathFromAbove said:

In general I agree, but I also agree with the other posters. I think Mal was being ironic.

Poor Mal, this is the second time he gets called out so fiercely for what he says. And to be honest, he really didn't do anything deliberately offensive. I really don't think he was trying to be condescending or elitist or anything like that, he was just saying that he admits the games are expensive but he can't help buying them anyway, in a humorous way.

Even though we may have a lot of money in scandinavia, we also pay upwards of double the cost Americans pay, sp things even out somewhat.

I can understand the frustrated reply of Death if you read Mal's post not knowing how Mal usually posts. I'm am 100% sure he meant no insult with his post and as others have pointed out it is actually a kind of joke on himself and his government. Where else but Norway can you get monetary help for playing games. Its far out, which I think is what he points out.

Death, you really shouldn't see it as an insult. This is a nice Forum. people here don't write stupid or insulting things. The very few times it has happened, the people involved have apologized and remained friendly afterwards.

-L

First I don't hate anyone, just to be clear.

Second, perhaps I've misread Mal post, in this case I apologize to him for my fierce response. But if it's a second time his posts are misunderstood he should making some thinking on how he writes these posts. Coincidence, of course. The third time it will be statistics, though.

Third it's not the first time, on these boards, that the price "issue" (for some at least) is discussed basing on personal income. And, imho, this is wrong.

DeathFromAbove said:

Hmm, A bit surprised . But clearly you responded badly to my post. If I have offended you, than I am sorry. At least I don't think the person I qouted and asked was offended, his reply did not indicate such.

You're right that asking about a person's income can be insensitve. And you're right that perhaps I should have phrased me differently. Reason I asked where NOT to get information about his income, but rather where he lived. You see depending on where you live in the world, prices can range widely. Some countries charge extra for importing certain goods. My country for instance, you can import books without paying anything extra, but once the product has been classified as toys (as they do with FFG products), there is a extra tax of 30-50% of item's value.

I was trying to relate to this guy's problem, not riddicule him. And my last remark about gaming addiction was meant to be funny and ironic. You don't ACTUALLY get money to purchase gaming products, you get free access to a state funded program to get rid of your gaming problem.

You pretty much live up to your nickname DeathFromAbove, a suprise attack from your lofty pinnacle of morality, against insensitive persons like me. (joking).

I hope we can put this behind us, as I would hate to get into your statistics.

sincerly

can we now get back on subject....

And with that I'll add my part

I have played a few different systems by now and read a bunch of others, but I have never been as excited about a system as this (well I probably have but this exceeds).

I think that there are actually alot more rules in this system that you would notice at first. Especially when you just flip through the rulebook. Of course most of the rules are actually on the cards, which is why the player's guide is 300 pages. But I think there are so many underlying rules in this system that you don't think about or even have to think about, that just do their subtle work to enhance the game experience without distracting from the story telling.

There has been a lot of posts on this forum asking questions like can you do this or can you do that and most often you realize that, yes you actually can. There are very few rules that say you can't do stuff. Somehow this system manages to give you freedom to decide, as the GM or in union with you players. It encourages you to think of what would be likely or reasonable in any given situation. With so many games, anytime you're in doubt, you grab the rulebook and start looking up the rule for the current situation. Most likely there will actually be a rule which tell you what you must do. I know that you can (and many probably do) use as many or as few rules as you choose in any given system. But still, knowing that there is a rule for everything you want to do influences you to use them rather than your common sense. And I think that is restrictive and it may give some people an excuse to play the rules rather than the game.

Warhammer doesn't do that IMO.

There are rules I don't agree with (and I was really dissapointed with the GM Toolkit), some of which I have mentioned or tried to House Rule in other posts, but basically this system works because on the surface it is so simple that you don't think about the mechanics that make it work or what rule to use in order to do what you want.

Its like watching a really good movie or listening to great music. When you lie back and enjoy the whole of the creation in its fullness you don't think about the different components/instruments or special effects that make up the act.

Have you had time to give a try again yourself, Boggle? What are your thoughts now that a year has passed?

-L