As has been noticed before the weapon values don't seem to be quite balanced. I don't think the Bolters are too good though (perhaps you could tune them down to 2D10+4/2D10+8), I think plasmas, meltas and assault cannons are not even near where they should be. It would be crazy to give up the full-auto capable bolter (including suppressive fire) for a plasma gun. So a fix is in order.

[i should add that I don't blame FFG here - I have been expecting problems with that as that is not easy to balance... after all GW did some recallibration since 1st Edition too.]

I think we need new values for Plasmas, Meltas... flamers seem to be okay (or are they not?)... Assault Cannon... Sniper Rifle... and I didn't even look at grenades and missiles yet.

Okay, I'll try one or two ad hoc (I'll assume Bolter values of 2D10+4/8 here, if you don't like that, just add another 1 or 2 points to damage):

Meltagun S/-/- Dam 4D10+8 Pen 13 Special: Meltas add 1D10 to Penetration at short range or below

[comment: damage comparable to krak missile, pen higher]

Plasmagun S/2/- Dam 3D10+10 Pen 10 Special: Volatile

[comment slightly lower dam and Pen than Meltagun]

Assault Cannon -/-/10 Dam 3D10+5 Pen 7 Special: Tearing and a few specialties that have yet to be determined.

It's just a first suggestion... if we can build agreement on these 3 weapons, then we can extrapolize from there to the other weapons (pistol and heavy versions, etc.).

Alex

Are you not bothering with Maximal fire on the PG cause that's going to knock it over the damage of the MG.

I think you might have have bitten off more that can chew trying to match things with those ridiculous bolter stats.

Face Eater said:

But if one thinks those stats are too high, one can sort off apply a global multiplier. To me, it seems to be a case of first getting proportions somewhat right?

Alex

I notice as well that Astartes Bolters do more damage than both Deathspitters and Pulse Rifles which (and I know this is going to cause trouble for bringing it up) both cause more damage in TT.

The table top must be balanced across whole armies, and here things can be closer to the fiction and thus the Astartes Bolter is immensely better.

I tried to do something similar a while ago with DH and Rogue Trader, the problem I found is that amping the weapons up to their fluff "accurate" or at least what seems like it, will break the game break the game.

What this creates is a game where most (advanced) weapons WILL kill a player in one good burst. Of course, why would this be a problem, it is accurate right? Because it's not very fun having to watch out for anyone with anything more dangerous then a bolter. That Plasmagun is has an average damage of about 36, and because of the pen 10 he won't get any armor against it, which means that the first hit will (assuming a TB 8, 23 wound marine) knock him to 5 wounds Then you roll damage for the second hit...

The meltagun will give that same knock the same marine to one wound.

It's good fluff wise, but will pretty much make the game unplayable, or at least not very fun. Maybe you want to play a game where you die at the of a hat.

The deathwatch bolter has a similar problem, assuming it hits the body it's average damage to the marine will be 8, which will add very quickly if it's a storm bolter and/or on full auto.

You can use these rules, but expect people to die. Quite a lot then it seems space marines should.

What I would do to solve this this problem would be:

Drop the Astartes bolter to 2D10+3 or +4, I'm not sure which. Drop the Heavy bolter (because it's currently insane) to 2D10+6 or +7.

Add +3 to damage and +2 to pen to all plasma weapons. I've done this to every published plasma weapon (I based to rule off the RT guns) and it works pretty well to balance them against other weapons.

The only thing about melta weapons I might change is something to make the better against vehicles, but I'm not sure what that would entail yet.

Good luck!

@ Collinsas: Yes, but what about Astartes Plasma weapons and Meltas?

As is I think the Plasma weapons at least need another d10 of damage. The Astartes Melta guns at least get another d10 of damage when in short range. But as is, why would you use a S/2/-, 1d10+9 E, Pen 8 Volatile Plasmagun vs a S/2/4, 2d20+5 X, Pen 5 Tearing Boltgun? Even on Maximal mode the Plasmagun is only S/2/-, 2d10+9 E, Pen 10, Volatile, Overheats, Recharge. And this is without all the specialty ammo.

Add a d10 to those damage ratings and its more comparable. The regular setting would still be a bit weaker than the Boltgun due to lower RoF and lack of tearing, though that is somewhat mitigated by the extra +4 damage and +3 Pen over the Boltgun, and the Maximal mode would let you let out a really nasty double-tap, though only once every other round.

@SomVone: True, Fluff accurate Astartes bolters and other such weapons would make DH and RT a meat grinder but that’s not much of an issue at DWs power level.

@GalagaGalaxian: Yes, it would seem that a lack for strength behind the other Astartes grade arms would seem to be an oversight, and you have made and accurate comparison across the bolter and plasma weapon classes.

I yeld the floor....

Sure would've been nice if FFG had given two ***** about internal balance so we didn't have to worry about things like this...

SomVone said:

I don't understand your logic though. If the same marine is being hit by a heavy bolter, let's say 3 bullets strike (instead of 2 plasmagun hits)... assuming a damage of 2d10+8... that is round about 21 points average (I'm assuming a higher average because of tearing) with Pen 6 (assuming an average AP of 9) leading to 3 x 10 points of damage. That's not much better either. And mind you: I've used my reduced values. With the given rules that is 3x12 points of damage.

I don't see the game getting any more deadly. Because quite frankly - a good shot with a Bolter (4 hits) will be quite deadly too - 4xtimes the chance for Righteous Fury. Don't forget the power of multiple hits.

It doesn't make the Plasma Gun more deadly than other weapons. It just keeps a specialist weapon from being requested because it's not lethal to dangerous enemies at all.

And I haven't yet begun mentioning the RAW Lascannon.

In short: it's not about lethality - it's about inner balance. The Plasma Gun as a specialist weapon is weak compared to a Bolt Gun (even against armoured opponents thanks to Righteous Fury). Nobody who is looking at thos stats will be taking it. First you get the inner balance between weapons right - and then you can uniformly adjust damages in order to scale the lethality while maintaining the inner balance.

Alex