underwhelming. Sure, it could be worse, but I find it to be a little poor with regard to benefit vs. cost for the vast majority of investigators. Even several of the ones that are supposed to excel with spellcasting seem generally weak compared to investigators that specialize in other areas.

The problem seems to come from multiple fronts:

1. The spell deck is too diluted with too many spells that are overly situational, and you're only supposed to draw 2 spells at the magic store.

2. Combat spells are generally decent, but seem somewhat inferior to most of the magic weapons in the Unique Item deck on account of the costs.

3. It's just sort of cumbersome having to roll a lore check for every spell - it sort of seems like the lore check should replace the fight check

for combat spells, or something.

I'm thinking #1 would be the easiest fix, culling some copies of the weaker spells from the deck, and allowing 3 instead of 2 spells be drawn at the store. But I'm also intrigued by the possibility of using #3 - I'm sure it would be glitchy, but it would be beneficial to allow your will to be high without sacrificing your fighting ability in the case of using spells.

Another option might be to "attach" specific spells to the Tomes. For the penalty of losing a sanity you should gain two chances to get a spell, like the Book of Dyzan. The player would have the option of drawing two specific spells or two random ones

For example, if you find the "Book of Dyzan" it will contain "Shrivelling" and "Heal"

That actually is a good idea.

I foresee much reshuffling of the spell deck in your future

You're pretty much spot on. There's a very noticeable power gap between the magic store and the unique store, and their respective decks. Tweaking the decks is a pretty common solution. Also, if you've got a couple of expansions, the original reason why you were only allowed to draw 2 spells when shopping becomes obsolete. Feel free to increase it to 3 spells per buy. If your players have a habit of camping on the unique shop for elder signs, you could also reduce that one to 2 cards per buy.

Combat spells vs magic weapons is also a sore point. A lot of the combat spells underperform for their cost (Wither, Dread Curse), and the ones that are worthwhile are overkill against many enemies, meaning you have to get another weapon regardless. What I did, in addition to trimming the spell deck, was to leave only one of each magic weapon in the unique deck to make them more rare compared to spells.

As to your third point, I think the additional difficulty and cost of spells is warranted, as a design element. But the effects have to be worth the cost, which often isn't the case. Of the original spells, Dread Curse, Wither, Enchant Weapon are all poor in that regard. Shrivelling and Red Sign I find well balanced. The additional combat spells from KiY work well, while those from Kingsport are a bad joke.

Overall, when comparing the decks and their respective shops, spells have the huge problem that there isn't a single Elder Sign equivalent in the deck, something that's just a no-frills big-time boost in winning the game. Find Gate helps closers, and Arcane Insight is downright broken in certain situations, but they still don't come close in general utility. Further, there's a lot more variance in the unique deck. You can get Elder Signs, the best weapons, tomes that provide clues, even allies and doom token-removal, and all kinds of useful effects just from a single shop. Also, since you can get spells from tomes too, you might just as well shop uniques even when you're looking for spells. Spell utility is much more narrow, and tends to be combat-focused.

Something else I just thought of.... what if, when you use a combat spell, you attack with will rather than fight?
It may seem weird and unbalanced, but hear me out....

1. It can be assumed that a spellcaster would be more methodical and cautious in combat than reckless and aggressive. This is the exact flavor difference between will and fight and why they're on an inverse slider. It also means that will plays a role in spellcasting, which makes sense.

2. It gives spellcasters a slight to moderate mechanical leg-up of being able to keep their wills very high at the expense of their fight when using combat spells while maintaining high damage potential, which reduces their susceptibility to sanity damage from random sources, balancing out the threat of sanity losses vs. the handicap of sanity costs.

Sure, there are bound to be some issues that arise - like making spells and weapons less compatible, but... I'm curious enough to try it out and see how it works.

Nevermind, I just realized that that would actually hurt some investigators relative to others that it really shouldn't, like Dexter, etc. that have higher fights than they do wills. I think I'll just stick with what I originally said, glad to see some positive reinforcement there as well.

In addition, adding a couple of items that assist in spellcasting would encourage their use.

A few cursed items would also help to balance out the benefit of hanging out at the curio shoppe vs. the magic shop

One easy way of fixing the spell/weapon balance is to use the Dark Pharaoh herald. 1 Sanity isn't all that much, but it'll make one at least a little bit more reluctant to go weapon shopping at the Curiositie Shoppe (although I think the real problem is all the weapons that come up as a by-product of fishing for Elder Signs).

That said, I do actually kind of like Shrivelling and even Wither; also some of the expansions make things a little better for magic users...for example, the support spells in Lurker, and things like the Livre and the Magic Shoppe encounters that let you search the spell deck for Find Gate or anything else you might need. But I can't imagine how anyone could have thought Enchant Weapon was a good idea.

we reduced all situational spells to one card each. we also removed some magic weapons, making spells more valuable because you don't have easily access to (other) magic weapons.

Spells chould only cost Sanity when you successful cast them. Fail to cast a spell and there's no cost. Sure Spells are still situational and most times you'd prefer a UI but this makes them a little more appealing.

I think it's fine as it is...magic should be rare, and the fact that it is so rare to have the right spell in the right situation portrays this well. It's really satisfying to pull something impossible by other means, by the use of magic (like Banishing a couple of Cthonians sitting on gates )

Einlanzer80 said:

I agree magic doesn't work that well in AH and may not even be worth the effort on most occasions.

But rather than seeing this is as a weakness in gameplay could this be a deliberate and appropriate thematic approach to magic?

In Lovecraft, dabbling in magic can be pretty dangerous - often leading to insanity or unintended consequences.

Maybe its a good thing that use of magic in the game isn't overpowered. In the game, as in the world of Lovecraft, it's a pretty dangerous and unpredictable thing and probably best left alone if you want to stay sane or even alive!

However you can give it a go if there is nothing left to try and take the consequences.

I feel the spirit of the Great and Ancient Millmaster floating through this thread...

Millmaster was the first (and loudest) vocal dissenter against the "bloated" Spell Deck, and this was after just Dark Pharaoh and Dunwich were available. Oh, did he hate the DP Spells.

I agree that Spells are not as serviceable as Uniques, but comparing them by any other criteria besides combat is unfair. Yes, any gun or sword or anything that doesn't require a Check to use is of course going to be more desirable in combat. Unless you have one of a few scenarios (Daisy, Carolyn, Storm of Spirits, Azure Flame), Combat Spells end up being your "last resort". However, most Combat Spells do actually provide more dice per hand than most weapons.

But beyond that, there are just as many "flop" Uniques as there are "flop" Spells. Maybe one needs to have a FULL all-expansion deck to appreciate that, but I find my games will turn more often on one good Call Friend or Foresee than a Mission or Milk of Shub. But I'm also willing to accept that that is just me. Maybe you just don't like the Spell deck. Many don't. Millmaster didn't either.

I've actually cut down any Spell with exactly 3 copies to 2 copies in my deck, but more out of a craving for variety than any kind of utility. I just want it to keep surprising me.

underwhelming. Sure, it could be worse, but I find it to be a little poor with regard to benefit vs. cost for the vast majority of investigators.

I agree magic doesn't work that well in AH and may not even be worth the effort on most occasions.

But rather than seeing this is as a weakness in gameplay could this be a deliberate and appropriate thematic approach to magic?

I'm sure that's the reasoning behind it. But magic is considereably strengthened in the hands of Daisy; and in later expansions and the personal stories (Dexter and Harvey) and the increasing ease in casting a pretty decent combat spell (Storm of Spirits) and some spell casting aids such as Crystals of the Elder Things all of which weaken that argument.

In Lovecraft, dabbling in magic can be pretty dangerous - often leading to insanity or unintended consequences.

It wasn't just dabbling but successful dabbling that caused the problems in Lovecraft and the role-playing game that actually inspired Arkham Horror. In other words, merely attempting to cast spells shouldn't be mind damaging, but actually casting them (or miscasting if there were such a thing in this game) should/could make you mad.

Maybe its a good thing that use of magic in the game isn't overpowered. In the game, as in the world of Lovecraft, it's a pretty dangerous and unpredictable thing and probably best left alone if you want to stay sane or even alive!

That would be OK too if you didn't take completely random investigators. Being saddled with Dr Vincent, Gloria, Sister, Harvey Walters or even Dexter who start with 2 or 3 spells each is pretty discouraging usually. The investigator is much weaker in comparison. Almost everyone I've ever played with offers a choice of 2 or 3 investigators and usually the spell casters go begging. (Ironically the best spell caster in the base set is Carolyn Fern and she doesn't even start out with spells.

jgt7771 said:

I still have Milmaster's old thread squirreled away. While I don't agree with him on quite a few points, I'll repost it for reference, since a lot of current players won't have read it.

[Millmaster wrote]

I worked so hard on this analysis... hehe.. and some people are still interested in trying to make the spell deck more playable, or at least thin it down a bit, so I figured I would copy over my old thread...

Base Set Spells:

Bind Monster (2)

This spell deserves 2 slots in either deck. It lets you take out any monster in the game so it is really a catch-all removal type spell. The cost may be high, but hey... Colour out of Space anyone?
(Leave 2 in any cut)

Dread Curse (4)

A harsh cost for a massive combat advantage. There are some players that would rather see some other combat spells, so I can see trimming this guy, but I personally like 4.
(-1 if in a really trim spell deck)

Enchant Weapon (3)

This is the first spell I see no use for whatsoever if you are cutting the deck down. My thought has always been, take these out and draw a spell if you want something against physical resistance. I would rather increase my chances of drawing shriveling, or dread curse than draw this spell AND have to have a tommy gun or whatever.
(-3 in a trim deck, -2 in others)

Find Gate (4)

The "closers" best friend. This spell is so very useful if you can get it into the hands of investigators who can use it. This spell has always been a key component in many games where we won by closing all gates on the board.
(Keep all 4 in any deck)

Flesh Ward (4)

Trade stamina for a sanity. Seems like a good deal for most high-sanity, low-stamina type spell casters. I can see cutting this down to 3 in a really tight spell deck.
(-1 in a tight cut, keep all 4 in any other case)

Heal (3)

As useful as the spell looks on the surface, I just don't see many people use it effectively. I would rather have flesh ward in most cases, though heal works post-damage and can heal others. The main problem with this spell is that it depends on the number of successes rolled, so it throws a random element into the mix..
(-2 in if your cutting tight, -1 in other decks)

Mists of Releh (its R'LYEH FFGs!!!) (4)

A lot of players groan when pulling this spell, but it is key to have 4 of these suckers in any deck. Nothing like misting your way into a gate, then casting find gate the next turn, and misting your way out... who needs weapons mr dhole!!
(Keep 4 in any deck)

Red Sign of Shudde M'ell (2)

Hey, yeah we all wish we could INCREASE the count of these spells.
(Keep both, and try to steal your friends to add more!)

Shrivelling (5)

Key combat spell, no arguments here...
(Keep 5 in any deck)

Voice of Ra (3)

A sad little spell... who wants to pay 1 sanity for something like this? Your best case scenario is if you failed to close a gate last turn, and you have multiple horror and combat checks to make before you make your gate check again... In most cases it boils down to getting an extra die on your horror and your combat check...
(-3 in hard cut decks, -2 in others)

Wither (6)

The brainless combat spell... I say leave all 6 unless your REALLY cutting down, then you might lower it to 5 just to maintain some balance...
(leave all 6)

Dunwich:

Alchemical Process (2)

$3 for 1 sanity.. please... unless you want to camp out at the asylum and cast this every turn, its not that great. (good if your the psychologist or have a healing stone, but hey, thats why you make a "at-least-1-of" type deck)
(-2 for hard cut, -1 for others)

Bless (1)

Blessings are good I hear... 2 sanity loss... yeow.. Discard the spell... hrm.. i'm not sold.
(-1 in hard-cut decks)

Call Friend (2)

I have seen this used to rescue weak players trapped at a location before, but overall i seems weak because investigators normally don't work in pairs...
(-2 for a hard cut, -1 for others)

Cloud Memory (3)

This card can work as part some crazy combos indeed... I just don't find it very effective for every day use.
(-2 for hard cut, -1 for other decks)

Foresee (3)

1 sanity for a re-roll... nice to have a catch-all kind of skill. I would have liked to see the modifier be higher and have a sanity cost of 0 to make this spell playable.
(-3 for hard cuts, -2 for others)

Greater Banishment (2)

Ok, this can be well worth the 2 sanity. This goes along with bind monsters as one of those that gives you some power for that payment of your sanity. (again... Colour out of Space anyone?)
(Keep both)

Lure Monster (2)

Really... I can pay one sanity to have the monster come to ME?? On the surface it seems like you might expect me to say cut these suckers. BUT, this is a team game, and I have seen this spell used to pull a tough monster off a gate (dark young anyone) to allow a player ill-equipped for combat to enter the gate unchallenged.
(-1 for Hard Cuts, -0 for others)

Summon Shantak (2)

Mists on steroids, but costs 1 sanity. I think its worth it to take a ride.
(-1 in Hard Cut decks, Keep both for others)

Vision Quest (2)

Blah... people seem to be in love with this card. Its not worth the 1 sanity.
(-2 and then rip them up)

Wrack (2)

Run away for 1 sanity... I guess its ok if "a monster appears" that you cant evade, or you fail your spell check when casting your shrivel or whatever... I've never seen it used with any sincerity...
(-2 for hard cuts, -1 for others)

CotDP:

Denying the Ancient One

Ohhh can I really pay a sanity for that? No.. you cant because we removed all these spells. This spell just doesn't cut it..
(remove all for Hard Cut, leave 1 for others)

Premonition

It costs 1 sanity to focus 2 at any time. Ummm no..
(Cut all, and then tear them up)

Astral Travel

A good spell for gate closers. Fun when you get this spell, find gate and a gate box...
(keep all)

Feeding the Mind

Another nasty combo type card that can match up well with other items or abilities that give you back stamina. I guess this is where your heal spell could be fun....
(Hard cut decks could take out 1, other decks just leave them in)

Markings of Isis

In the same way that Mists lets you use lore for a sneak check, Markings lets you use lore for a horror check. This is playable since you lose no sanity.

(hard cut decks -1, other decks keep all)

Revelation of Script

Looks kind of lame on the surface, but for spell casters, or "almost" spell casters (people with lore of 4) this spell can be really great. I have seen it used often and with great effectiveness.
(I say keep all, but you could -1 for a really hard cut)

Plague of Locusts

Im on the fence about this spell. I have seen it in action, but each time it was never clear if the use of the spell was really warranted, or did more harm than good. I liked it better when we thought that you could use it more than once per turn. As it stands now, you need certain circumstance where you have a few 1 toughness monsters together with something harder and you can sacrifice the 1 and 1, and then go in and beat the hard monster.
(Remove all but 1 for hard cuts, and leave them for others)

Shroud of Shadow

I'll hide in the mists, or ride shantak, but paying sanity just for a sneak bonus that might not even succeed?? No I dont think so..
(Cut all)

KiY:

(I dont think I have done these as part of my overall list, so this might differ a bit if you find a different list in another thread)

Storm of Spirits:

Awesome card... Lets you use your lore for combat so you can keep your Will higher. Great with lore 5 and 6...
(Keep all for both decks)

Summon the Beast Within:

Good card to boost up weaker casting type investigators. 7/3 or 6/4 type casters really benefit from this.
(Keep all for both decks)

Open the Third Eye:

This is a reverse of the Beast, but most caster type characters dont want to cast this type of spell.
(Leave all but 1 for "keep-1" decks, cut all for Hard Cut decks)

Azure Flame

Magical Shotgun... yeah it costs sanity... Magical Shotgun.... yeah
(keep all)

Arcane Insight

Flux Capacitor, meet Mr. Insight....
(Keep all)

Yellow Mist

I dont like it much, as the modifier is high, and it costs sanity... I would rather just have more offensive spells to keep the board cleared of monsters, rather than just try to remove them from the Outskirts with something like this.
("Keep-1" should keep 1, Hard Cut should cut all)

[End Quote]

Edit: I hate this forum software. If anyone knows how to make this an actual quote, let me know.

You know, I was just thinking that part of the issue with sanity costs for spells is that there's always a large threat of sanity damage from failed horror checks.

In my opinion, sanity and stamina should not be balanced in this respect - in general there should be a noticeably higher stamina threat from monsters than sanity threat. So, I might try a solution of removing some of the monsters from the cup that have worse horror checks than combat checks (obviously I'll keep some of them in) - which will serve a dual purpose - reducing the liability of spellcasting and bringing mechanical balance between sanity and stamina (sanity is universally considered more important for a variety of reasons - making high stamina investigators somewhat gimped relative to high sanity investigators). It will help Vincent out too!

Einlanzer80 said:

if you don't have enough successes on your combat check you have to roll again and again. you can lose very much stamina on that. compared to that, the threat of losing sanity is very low because you can lose it only once. this is exactly the reason why everyone usually keeps his fight value high and his will value low and takes the sanity loss to reduce the danger of stamina loss.

if you had to make a horror check every combat round, the risk would be about the same for sanity and stamina and people would use higher will values.