I would like to start a common thread to gather all the rules questions and apparent rulebook errors or discrepancies. Please start your post either with RULES QUESTION, RULES ERROR or RULES DISCREPANCY. Then proceed with your question or comment. If you want to reply to someones post, please use the quote function, so that responses are clearly distinct from actual questions. It would also be nice , if a Moderator could make it sticky, so there is no need to bump the thread

RULES DISCREPANCY

Intimidate and Dodge skills, show up in the list of starting trained skills on Pg.36. They dont show up on the Character sheet, and show up in the Rank 1 General Space Marine Advances on Pg. 60 as purchasable skills. Is it intended ?

RULES QUESTION

Does the WS bonus from various Hatred talents stack ? E.g. A character having Hatred (chaos Space Marines) and Hatred (psykers) attacks a chaos space marine sorceror in melee, does he get a total of +10 , or +20 as both Hared talents apply ?

RULES QUESTION:

Reposted from earlier thread for purposes of consolidation:

1) Unrelenting Devastation + Heavy Bolter + Metal Storm rounds. The Unrelenting Devastation states: "When firing a Heavy weapon, the Devastator Marine inflicts 1 extra point of damage to a Horde's Magnitude for every hit. If using a weapon with the Blast Quality, he instead inflicts 1d5 extra points of damage to a Horde's Magnitude (after all other hits have been applied)." A Heavy Bolter with Metal Storm rounds is considered both a Heavy weapon and a weapon with Blast (2) Quality, so which is applied in the case of Unrelenting Devastation (since it says "instead")? The Heavy quality (1 extra damage per hit), or Blast Quality (1d5 extra damage after all other hits)? If both are applied, the Heavy bolter with Metal Storm rounds is absurdly broken against Hordes with Unrelenting Devastation, as it both doubles the Magnitude damage due to hits scored, and adds 1d5 extra damage!

2) Can a Space Marine parry an armed attack while unarmed and in power armour? My answer was no, but the player presented a compelling case that due to Space Marines starting with Unarmed Master Talent (unarmed attacks are not primitive anymore), having really high Strength and Strength Bonus while in power armour, and power armour being a non-primitive armour, a Space Marine ought to be able to parry (deflect and redirect the blow) with his unarmed attacks. Parry (page 232) states that the character must be wielding a melee weapon. The Unarmed Combat rule (page 245) does not say that an unarmed character can parry, nor is an unarmed character considered to be wielding a melee weapon, but it doesn't say he can't parry either. The Unarmed Warrior talent (a prereq for Unarmed Master) states that the the character "does not count as Unarmed, as defined on page 245, when making attacks against armed opponents." Note, that it does not say that he is specifically armed, just that he doesn't suffer the usual penalties against armed opponents when being unarmed (-20 Weapon Skill). The Unarmed Master Talent also does not state that the character is now considered armed, just that his attacks are no longer primitive (and deal more damage). Interestingly enough, even a creature with Natural Weapons (page 133) cannot parry, nor can a creature with Improved Natural Weapons (page 132).

3) Under "Damaging a Horde" section on page 359, it says: "Weapons that inflict Explosive Damage (X) gain a bonus against Hordes, and count as having inflicted one additional hit." IMO, this is very ambiguous wording when it comes to automatic fire. For example, if I hit a horde 3 times with a bolter (explosive damage), and assuming I dealt damage with every hit, do I deal 6 points of magnitude damage (2 damage per hit * 3 hits), or do I deal 4 points of magnitude damage (1 damage per hit + 1 extra hit because of Explosive Damage)? The Explosive Damage subsection doesn't say that weapons with (X) inflict one additional Hit per hit, or whether they inflict one additional Hit in total, regardless of how many Explosive Damage shots hit.

4) Under "Oath-taking" on page 228, it states: "In addition to the listed Codex Squad Mode abilities the Kill-team will also have access to their leader's Chapter Squad Mode abilities." Does this contradict "Using Chapter Specific Abilities" on page 219 which states that only Battle-Brothers of the same Chapter as the Chapter ability may benefit from their effects, while all other members of the Kill-team will be unaffected regardless of their Mode or if they are in Support Range?

RULES QUESTION

What is the purpose of Hardy and Autosanguine Talents for the Apothecary, both cost the same amount and Autosanguine includes the benefits of Hardy anyway, while providing an additional healing bonus. Is the difference pure cosmetic and concept based, as Autosanguine suggests small machines (nanites) in the characters body ?

RULES DISCREPANCY

Table 7-16 (page 229) lists a Squad Mode Ability called "Tactical Advance." There is no such Squad Mode Ability, there is however a Squad Mode Ability called Squad Advance (page, 221) that grants Tactical Advance move as a Reaction.

RULES QUESTION

Under "Using Solo Mode Abilities" it states that "the actions required to activate [solo Mode Abilities], can be found in the individual descriptions of each of the Solo Mode abilities." However, Burst of Speed, Emperor's Grace, Extreme Endurance, Feat of Strength, Blood Frenzy, Stoic Defence, do not list the type of actions (Reaction, Free, Half, Full) required to activate these abilities. Can you please clarify which action does each of these abilities use to activate?

In the tyranid weapons section, the stranglethorn cannon and bardeb strangler have the exact same statlines. is this intentional?

as for heavy bolter+unrelenting devastation+metal storm, i believe this would be only the+1d5 hits, as it is a blast weapon, which overrides the previous bonus. for example you wouldnt give a plasma cannon +1 hits and +1d5, the fact that the HB is full auto shouldnt change this. its still very nasty indeed.

Razorboy said:

This needs to be errata for sure. If you read the descriptions of the Oaths it shows them granting Squad Advance, however the chart lists Tactical Advance. I want to say this ability was originally called Tactical Advance early in the playtest and likely the chart missed the name change.

kenshin138 said:

Same with the Psychic Power/Technique talent.

Alex

RULES DISCREPANCY (p185)

When using a psychic power at the Push level, do you add +3 (as per the subsection on p185) or +WP Bonus (as per the example given on that page) to your PR? It just so happens that the example in this case is +3, but it does specifically state WP Bonus.

Pg 246, fourth bullet point deown

"If the character is wielding at least one melee weapon, he may perform a Parry Reaction once each Round as normal with this weapon, though he still may not Parry more than once in a Round. This Weapon Skill Test is not an attack and therefore it does * suffer the standard penalty for attacks made using a secondary hand."

Where the * is marked, should there be the word "not" inserted, the second sentence seems to not make sense as written.

I always laugh when a book has this huge list of playtesters and a ton of eyes on it scrutinizing before printing, and within one week of being released to the public a massive litany of errors and omissions comes rolling in. How can they miss so many things?

Because sections of book are not written until after the playtest phase, or are rewritten after the playtest phase with no time for them to then be sent back to the playtesters for proper testing? The books are on a deadline, it happens. Nothing the playtesters can do about it at that stage, and it happens to more books/companies than you think.

Most of the 40k RPG books don't have nearly as much errata as some of the RPGs I own, and some RPGs I own have more problems than the 40k RPG books do and have no errata.

Plus, you say "lots of playtesters", and it's about 40-50 (for Deathwatch), compared to the hundreds/thousands of people who will end up buying the game. Of course, once the book is fully released, those increased numbers will end up spotting problems the playtesters didn't. As one or two of the Deathwatch playtesters (I was sadly not amongst them, too busy with Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader stuff) have said, some bits have been printed in the final book that were not in their playtest copies, or have been altered since then.

J-Tech said:

Happens in every system... I'm glad that the general quality of the background stuff in Deathwatch is up to scratch though, it's a stunning job in general. Pity about some of the rules problems. A lot could be solved with a simple FAQ though, so maybe that'll happen sooner rather than later.

In addition to what Millandson said above (and he's right about some RPGs having far worse problems)... A lot of the issues with Deathwatch (from my perspective at least) seem as though they're due to playtesters who were probably familiar with DH and RT, which I'm most certainly not. So where the playtesters came across a rule not spelled out properly, they may have gone "oh, it's obvious - it's the same as in the other games!" or not even noticed the problem, whereas I can't do that.

One more confusing thing:

One of the optional Special Abilities of the Apothecary Specialty is the ability to prepare poisons against specific enemy. All attacks of the Kill-Team against that enemy then count as Toxic. The rulebook specifically gives the example of Tau and Tyranids here.

However, the Tyranid Trait states that all Tyranids are immune to weapons with Toxic quality.

What do you guys make of it?

Claven said:

I would rule that it counts as Toxic, but that it's a special case. In the background, the Hellfire bolter shells were made for the same anti-Tyranid purpose, so it implies that it's possible to create weapons that damage the 'Nids on such a level. However I would also agree that it needs an errata (either way)!

Neisseria said:

Right, thanks, I missed the Hellfire shells (only got the rulebook today and haven't read that far yet:).

It makes a strong point towards your take on this thing, that would probably be my solution as well.

The counter-argument of course is that Hellfire shells have a vastly different effect to Toxic, so they're clearly meant to be different in the terms of game mechanics and therefore not really comparable confusing eh?

I'm really confused how you work out what modifier is applied to a Focus Power test when kicking off a pyschic power. In the rules it states that the pyscher makes a Focus Power Test modified by the level of the power, but under the Power Level section it doesn't mention anything about this. There's two examples later on in this section - one using a Power Level of Push where they make an ordinary (+10) Focus Power test and later on there's one using a Power Level of unfettered where they make a Challenging (+0) Focus Power Test, but neither of those examples tie up with the rules under the Focus Power Test section where it states that you add a bonus of 5X you Psi Rating to the Focus Power Test.

At the moment I haven't got a clue how this is supposed to work.

Perhaps not something for this thread but one of the beloved Deathwing characters has fallen to the whims of Chaos:

TYPO: p46 second last sentence describing the Deathwing reads "The warriors of the Deat wing".

panzer-attack said:

Panzer, you always add the 5XPR used (half PR for Fettered, full PR for unfettered, and PR+3 for Push) to the Focus Power Test regardless of the Power Level you're using. Therefore, the higher the PR the greater the bonus to Willpower and the greater the chance that the power manifests. In the first example (I presume the one on page 185), the character is manifesting Smite power, which can grant bonuses to the Focus Power Test depending on the range and other factors (as per Smite power description). These bonuses are on top of the 5XPR used.

MILLANDSON said:

The new Righteous Fury rule is absurd though.

About Toxins and Tyrannids: that's what you collect tyranid intelligence in Oblivion's Edge for? A sample of the genus might help.

Alex

Razorboy said:

Thanks Razorboy.

The rules themselves are fairly clear but the examples they use are complete rubbish in my opinion. Instead of clarifying the rules they just make them more ambiguous. As someone else mentioned earlier on in this thread, in the same section the examples make it unclear whether using a Power Level of Push adds a flat +3 to your psi rating (which is exactly what the rules say) but then in the example it states that it adds +3 because that's what the character's willpower bonus is.

RULES QUESTION

After having read the book (which just arrived in Paris last Friday ! ), I was wandering about one thing:

Is it possible to dodge a psychic power?

In some cases, there is no ambiguity, as for the Avenger power, which states clearly that it is used as a Heavy Flamer.

On the contrary, Blood Boil should not be dodgeable, because there is no physical targeting, it affects only one target "from inside", that's all.

But for powers like Smite?

Should we refer to the dodge action which states that to dodge an area effect you are limited by your Agility Bonus (in meters)?

In fact, I intend to play Final Sanction with my players and to use the Generstealer stats from Dark Heresy's Creature Anathema (with Unnatural Agility and Step Aside = two dodges per turn at 70% of succeeding). So a 'stealer could avoir area psychic powers which radius is inferior to 12m ! o_O

I was considering that may be I would not allow the primary target of Smite to dodge the power, as it is automatically centered on it when the power focus roll has succeeded, but others affected by the 1m x PR extended radius would be able to do so.

What do you think about that?