A brief, first critique of Deathwatch/ Feedback for FFG

By ak-73, in Deathwatch

Posted at

KommissarK said:

ak-73 said:

Elite advances. He can but he has to pay more. And he needs GM consent.

Alex

Not a bad way of doing it. I actually didn't realize medicae was rank 8 until now, that does kinda bug me. I mean, being a well trained fighting force, I would imagine SM are well enough capable of and trained in first aid early on (of course, current RAW means I'm wrong on this). I would probably houserule medicae as a rank 1 general advance for 800xp, and give no future ability to improve. Just so that a party without an apothecary can at least try to heal between fights.

I agree the elite advance is the easiest answer (thanks for reminding me ak-73) and overall I think my exposure to DH has probably colored my way of thinking. There seemed to be many more ways to take a career path or even a character style than in DW. I love the material in this book and the game is going to be a blast, I just might need to change my way of thinking.

The medicae thing almost seems like errata to me, I mean if my group ever gets to Rank 8 I can't imagine one of my players thinking..."Hmmm...yes, now IS the time to learn first aid." It seems to make more sense to offer it earlier on and no other career has medicae+, so to offer it earlier doesn't seem like much harm.

Posted at

aka_mythos said:

I'm all for making my player choose strategically, but I'd rather it be as a matter of actual planning as opposed to being driven as much by mechanics.

The core book is suppose to make people familiar with the game, once they've learned it that then becomes the domain of supplements and expansion.

I fail to see why what I suggested would be more mechanics driven than at present.

aka_mythos said:

I'm not saying the main rulebook doesn't need variety, it just needs something less than the level you want it. It needs adequate variety as opposed to variety that supplemental books can bring.
However if you take a look at the Psychic Phenomena and Perils of the Warp the core rulebook provides the same richness that I have been talking about. If you take a look at the Dark Heresy you are seeing the same richness that I don't find in Deathwatch. Just take a look at homeworlds, divinations, the names table. All that richness is lacking in Deathwatch. So it can be done and if I take a look around in this topic it seems to me that others would have liked the same variety in Deathwatch too. I have also given a few examples what could instead have been left out or shortened.
In short it could have been done, they have done it before, they didn't do it now, I think it lessens the impact of the book.
aka_mythos said:

Isn't it 5 past histories per chapter? Its only meant to help further distinguish two or more marines of the same chapter. Dealing with how are a bunch of relatively similar people who all live together different. If 5 players in your gaming group wanted to play the same chapter it might matter. Otherwise its jsut meant to be one more thing to add randomness to stat, while giving you something to keep in mind about your character.

And again - take a look at how two different characters from the same career in DH might turn out. Take a look at the background paths in RT and the volume dedicated to it. If I am asking for a doubling of the entries in Past Histories that cannot be considered excessive by any length.

aka_mythos said:

Space Marine is treated less like a class and more like a race. It is a game where everyone is on the same physical footing.

If you're consistently getting people with exactly the same characters, first you need to see if they care, if they do allow one of them to reroll if they'd like. No one says your stuck with the characte you generate.

No, that's beside the point. I have expressing feedback here, focussing on the things that don't work. If FFG made the Space Marines into DW 30 cm tall purple, fun-loving faeries, you can't reasonably say "So what? Just change their stats around a bit and don't make them 30 cm tall and purple." Background stuff is being provided by game companies to help players to bring their characters to life. The Past Histories as presented fall flat however. You might as well write down 5 enemies of that chapter yourself and roll a D5. Conversely something as DH's divination table you don't improvise like that on the fly to roll on.

aka_mythos said:

That "wow" aspect is superfluous. Power armor is issued to a marine, though personal and fun to explore, as a part of the game it isn't part of the actual game play beyond its effect in varying the rules between marines.

(Excitement in games is superfluous? Okay... )

Except with 5 marines there is a fair chance that 2 will have the same. And once more your line of argument is subverted by the fact that FFG provided more variance in such relatively unimportant things such as Psychic Phenomena. Not that I don't like it but...

aka_mythos said:

No system is perfect pen and paper RPG's by their nature take advantage of the fact that as group there is a creative force that can both guide the story and mediate indiscrepancies. You want more than what they gave you. Which is more than what's needed. They have supplements coming to give you more, but the core rulebook gives you only whats adequate.
Adequate by whose standards though? Who measures what's adequate and what's not? And why did DH and RT provide more than DW in some regards?
Anyway, my criticism isn't about what's adequate. Let me remind you that I was explaining in this topic why I didn't give DW more than 8.5 out of 10. So adequacy is not the issue, the issue is excellence. And I have been claiming that DW fails to excel because of the aforementioned points.
aka_mythos said:
What your saying is no longer a critique of the book, but its subject matters suitability as an RPG. There is more on Space Marine psychology and background than there has ever been for Tieflings or other rare D&D playable races. People get on fine with those. I'll agree that it can be challenging but that doesn't mean it needs to be on a silver platter. You want more so that plays can "explore" characters. I'd rather my players just be given guidlines and allowed to make it their own by defining their character.
You said it: rare race. In such instances it's a given that players will have to make up their own stuff. But if you're comparing Marines in DW with Tieflings in D&D (or other rare races), I submit that rather as evidence that I've got a point, your honour. ;-)
You said Marines were the (only) race one plays in Deathwatch. Unfortunately there's also one class for that race (which has a number of subclasses) - Paladin.
Combine that with the fact that Marines are so super-human and such dedicated soldiers, it would have been interesting to see who they are when the mission is over. Because DW failed to give answers to that overall, it falls short of excellence.

aka_mythos said:

And the point of playing a Deathwatch marine is to be a space marine doing all those things, but you still wouldn't want to force them to sit through the tedious part of what a marines life entails.

And which point have I suggested that? My remarks were more aimed at getting more information to get into the role of those super-humans which otherwise seem unearthly and boring.

To quote myself:

" I simply don't find there to be enough information on role-playing marines at all. Since Marines are no normal humans, the game should have at least gone into detail of what Marines do beyond practicing, meditating, fighting. Something beyond that in their daily life? Because if that was all there is, Marines would be dull personalities to play. Irrespective of being noble Arthurian knights while on a mission. It doesn't have to be a psychology seminar but what has been provided does not do.

What do Marines talk about when the Mission is over? That question remains unanswered.

Also, Marines should have plenty of (chapter-specific as well as DW-specific) rituals they observe. Once more, this doesn't need to turn into a sociological treatise. But going into the rituals of Space Marines should have been a must."

All of that aimed at getting into character. DW doesn't provide too much of it.

Alex

Posted at

ak-73 said:


All of that aimed at getting into character. DW doesn't provide too much of it.

Alex

Thankfully I have read a wealth of knowledge in the novels about Space Marines... so while I didn't need the rulebook to tell me what they do in their downtime, it would have helped those that have not read the novels and do not know what their downtime actually consists of.

This was the biggest boon that FFG's could have provided the players...a look into their psychology, yes.. but also a look into their humanity, which unfortunately was not covered in the book to any length of detail.

Posted at

Reading through this thread I see two advices:

1) Read some of the Black Library books. It gives you a feel what it means to be a space marine. IMHO not something you can put into a rulebook and something players must create in game. I do not care if it is canon or not.

2) Just play with the rules. If a player feels a character should act a certain way, let them do it. Oaths are taken because it fits within the mind of the marine, not the bonus that is bestowed in game. I want players to be creative. If someone thinks up a cool history for his weapon, equipment or character. I usually go for it. And reward them with some cool bonus. Rules are just guidelines to me.

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I have finally had a glance through DW and I have to say that it feels a lot more "gamey" than DH or RT, and I mean that in WoW/4E way.

The terms "Squad Mode" and "Solo Mode" are a bit clumsy and break immersion. Couldn't FFG have dug into GW's book of faux-latin and came up with something more Gothicy? Even the Tau had Tarocha and Monat.

Having said that, I do like the concept of squad mode abilities. Maybe some version of this might be adapted for Ascension level Stormtroopers and PCs with the Command skill. As of now, Command is mainly used as a Dominate non-hostile mook rather than having any actual leadership benefits.