Hi!

First, nice Work BUT...

You come up with a Space Marine with 14k XP without any special training, except the Deathwatch hypno-condition and Training!!

You say that only the best and long served Veterans and Elite Assault, Tactical, Devistator...Marines going to serve in the Deathwatch!

So why is it then that when I start gaming, that I must Learn to be an Assault Marine like an Fresh Initiatet Space Marine instad of being alrady an long served Assault Marine???

Im missing the light sleeper Talent from the Catalepsean Node, because The node allows a Marine to sleep and remain awake at the same time by switching off areas of his brain sequentially. This process cannot replace sleep entirely, but increases the Marines survivability by allowing perception of the environment while resting. This means that a Space Marine needs no more than 4 hours of sleep a day, and can potentially go for 2 weeks without any sleep at all. My player will get the Light SleeperTalent vor free!

Im missing some Talents by the Chaos Space Marine like Buling Biceps, Unarmed Master, ect..

Ok they joint Chaos but they have the same Implants like all other Loyal Marines and why have they as only Marine the Heightened Senes (Smell) Talent??

THX

I read through your post and i realized that i have no idea what you're talking about. It would help if you made your questions or comments a little more linear, then i would be able to help.

Thanks.

I think there are two main questions here: (EDIT: 3 main questions)

1. The rank 1 space marine in the Deathwatch game does not appear to be the grizzled veteran type that the fluff indicates are usually seconded to the Deathwatch.

2. A belief that chaos space marines have more ability than loyalist space marines (or rather, why the disparity in talents)

3. Some comments about the Catalepsean node

As far as question 2 goes, I think you're missing alot of the details on page 36. Rank 1 marines get bulging biceps, killing strike, unarmed master, almost everything on par with CSM, besides fearless, rapid reload, and some other stuff.

As far as question 1 goes:

I think the marines actually are reasonably powerful enough to be considered "veteran" (not 1st company mind you, but not totally green/out of the scout company). If you look at the actual talents/skills each speciality gets, along with the selected power, you'll find they do distinguish themselves fairly well. As far as being "veteran" compared to those normally in the specialty, consider the selected power as being what makes them stand out (like tac marines choosing either bolter mastery or tactical expertise, "hes particularly deadly with a bolter", or "hes an excellent squad leader") from their fellow marines. Also, consider the notion that scouts generally progress to devastator, to assault, then tactical. If this is the case, why doesn't a tactical marine specialty start with swift attack, like the assault marine does? I think it can be said that the starting classes do generally represent "skilled" marines in their specialties.

For the Catalepsean node:

I think the rules for it work just fine. Sleep deprivation does nothing to you over extended periods of time. Some amount of actual sleep is required (as you said, 4 hours). Light sleeper confers its own, separate ability, the ability to be treated as awake (when sleeping, not acting), for the purposes of awareness checks.

Since this topic has appeared, I have a related question... Am I correct in thinking that in order for an Assault Marine to use both of his weapons in a single turn, as you might expect from even the most novice Assault Marine, he must spend all of his starting experience buying Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee and Ballistic)? Seems odd to me.

Then again, if I'm reading things properly (which is not necessarily the case), the Tau Commander has an ability he can't even use... Dual Shot (relating to pistols, which the Crisis Suit is not armed with). Or am I missing something there too?

It's important to remember they can wield both weapons (as each are 1 handed, and they have ambidextrous), they just cannot make a multiple attack full action and use each without penalty. But they could make two melee attacks without issue, and just keep the pistol in the other hand.

As far as the tau commander, not sure, I've just been reading the book from start to finish, not there yet. I'd assume its stats to consider for them outside the crisis suit, or maybe some mechanic that allows the crisis suit to treat its weapons as pistols.

KommissarK said:

Just seems silly that he doesn't gain the obvious bonus for having a melee+pistol (i.e. the ability to attack with both in melee combat, p246), since that is the sole reason that Assault Marines are armed with those weapons in the first place instead of a melee weapon + bolter (which as a Space Marine they could still use one-handed)...

Re: the Tau, you're probably right there. At first I assumed he lost all of his abilities when out of the suit, but actually it says Traits (not Talents). So I suppose he keeps it. The fact that things like Independant Targeting seem very much like a suit-conferred bonus just make the issue a little more confusing never mind!

KommissarK said:

To use K's breakdown:

Look at how many skills that a character starts with. All of those would have to be learned over time and would be learned as a marine progresses to a point where the DW wants him. I would also say most DW Marines have at least some stat advances over standard marine, especially an initiate.

Ultimately a character must be able to progress to have any sense of growth and development. If every marine player started with every skill and talent that everyone thinks they should the game would be boring.

As to the Two Weapon Wielder question, not every assault marine is going to use both pistol and sword simultaneously. They are just as likely to switch one to the other as the situation dictates.

Also, a bolter can be fired in one hand but it is still a basic weapon and cannot be fired in melee, a pistol can.

ItsUncertainWho said:

That brings up an interesting question - can Swift Attack be used to fire a pistol twice in melee? The RAW for Swift Attack don't seem to say it can't (since it applies to making an extra "melee attack" and not "an attack made specifically by a melee weapon"), although I'm sure that it's intended to only apply to melee weapons.

Neisseria said:

Only if you hit him with the pistol's butt. Shooting with the pistol counts as ranged attack, even in melee. Don't know where it stands in DW but it's so in DH and RT, at least.

Alex

Like its mentioned in a previous post they can use it, they just dont have all super bonuses. Think about a scout, he couldnt do it because he doesnt have the training. An assault marine would be able to dual wield but not with the expierence that someone who has decades under their belt. In the minuature game I would imagine thats where a Vanguard marine would have all the expeirence and ability (purchased with exp). Hope this helps.

ak-73 said:

On page 140, it specifically states how pistols can be used. Fortunately, it also puts to rest the whole question of if pistols in melee get to use WS. Which they don't. It clearly states pistols are a special case, and when fired, are always treated as ranged attacks. Just they don't get range bonuses (but pistols with scatter are in fact at point blank)

KommissarK said:

Ah, cool. Thanks for the page reference. Makes it pretty concrete.

We've always played with a house rule that shooting a pistol in melee is a WS attack. Just to match up to the TT as much as that's what makes sense to me.

If the pistol has a SA rate of fire of S/2/x you can swift attack with it, if it has a S/3/x you can lightning attack with it.