It's taken me a while to notice - but where are all the House Arryn cards? According to Dabbler, there only exist 3 (Vale Refugee, Vale Rookery and Jon Arryn). There's certainly enough source material to warrant an entire series of chapter packs devoted to them (Vardis Egen, Bronze Yohn Royce, Lysa Tully, Alayne Stone, The Eyrie, more Clansmen for Lannister, the list goes on....). Given their "stay out the fighting" theme in the books, they could make a great neutral house that would make worthy support for any deck. - sort of like the Swiss of Westeros. I see it only as a matter of time before Arryn gets unleashed on us all! Anyone else agree? If so, how long before you think we'll see them?

Traditionaly there is only one set that had really any A House of Talons.

IN LCG land... Tyrell now seems like Tully, rolled into Baratheon (as tully is to stark).

However, Arryn should be its own house but its not. Every Gencon I pester Nate to make a House Arryn, but... it doesn't happen.

If you look at say Defenders we had 2 cards from each house, 1 for the plot then 7 for the wilding/nightwatch. In each chapter pack.

If you added Arryn it would have been 2 from each house, 1 for plot and 5 for night'swatch/wilding. Which would have reduced the amount of nw and wildlings by 6 cards each.

Or if he increased the count of unique cards to 21/22 per chapter pack...

Maybe we should form a petition?

Oh, and btw Littlefinger is technically a House Arryn character.

As much as I think we'd like to see a House Arryn - it's far too late in the game to release a whole brand new House. FFG would have to release a lot of cards very quickly if they were to get a chance to see any competitive play. I think making them neutral is more thematic and makes more sense commercially.

And technically yes, Littlefinger is sworn to House Arryn - but I think it's fair to say he isn't really loyal to them - no one really knows his true motives. I think keeping him neutral again makes more sense.

Rydo72 said:

+1 vote for seeing the Arryn's back in the game in some format.

+1 vote to the "Don't introduce a new house" chorus.

Personally I quite liked the way that the Arryn's were done in House of Talons; as a neutral 'tribe' that could either slot into other decks like regular neutrals (thematically propping up Stark or Baratheon decks), or be used to make an almost mono-grey construction that riffed on the synergies offered by running a high number of Arryn traited cards.

Now that we have the 'Neutral Faction' card to support mono-grey strategies a little more, I'd really like to see the Arryn's introduced in a similar fashion to the way that 'The Brotherhood' are being slipped into the game. Adding Arryn traited cards that boosted other cards with the same trait (see: Dothraki, Asshai, etc in the current Brotherhood cycle) and having a 'House Arryn' agenda* that was restricted to 'Neutral Faction only' and which rewarded something like winning challenges on the defence / winning dominance if you had a participating / standing Arryn, or that just made defending with Arryns easier (+2 STR if you have an Arryn defending in a challenge, go nuts) would push players in the direction of running a neutral-house deck and offer the opportunity to play something that felt like a seventh house, but wouldn't slow down the rate at which the existing six received new cards in the future. Plus, of course, for those players that didn't want to join the mono-grey party, there'd be a healthy flow of decent neutral cards (think Knights of the Vale, but slightly less absurdly good) to slap into their regular mono-house decks.

FFG could easily publish the whole thing as a single deluxe-box expansion that contained 53 Arryn cards + the agenda + the neutral faction card and slip it straight into the meta (an option that would let it reprint old Arryn cards like Lysa and Lords Declarant Bannermen). Or, as with Defenders of the North, it could just be done as a cycle of chapter packs (making 53 all new cards).

Also, on the subject of new houses, I've always wanted to see the Tyrells brought back in some meaningful way. Be it in the same fashion as the Tullys were made a tribal deck for Stark, or in a way similar to that used in House of Thorns.

Personally, I'd really enjoy a cycle of chapter packs that played with the theme of split-allegiances and dual loyalties, with cards messing around with dual-house affiliations and dual-crest themes. Such an environment would be ideal for the Baratheon/Lannister dual-house style Tyrells that existed back in the Iron Throne days, which could either function as regular cards in a mono-house Bara or Lani deck (having both house affiliations), or that club together in a dual-house Tyrell tribal one, possibly assisted by a card that looked something like this:

Title: House Tyrell
Type: House Card
Ignore all 'House X Only' restrictions on cards with the House Tyrell Trait
Ignore all gold penalties on cards with the House Tyrell Trait
Reduce the gold penalty on House Baratheon and House Lannister cards by one.

Again, such a solution wouldn't slow down the rate at which the old houses received new options, the new cards wouldn't be useless otuside of the intended quasi 'seventh house' deck (as they'd still be legitimate standalone options in Bara/Lani decks), and it'd even let existing mono-house Tyrells (Enemy Informer, come on down!) get in on the party.

Anyway, long story short, I'd love to see some more attention paid to the neglected factions of Westeros (and props to FFG for giving us Wildling, Brotherhood and Night's Watch decks already) and would be ecstatic to see a viable Arryn/Tyrell build made available. But I'm completely against adding a seventh house, which I think would stall the pace of development of the existing six (there can, unfortunately, only be X new cards per month), screw with existing cycles (Lolz! My house isn't targetted by any of the 'Fury of the Thingy' cycle!) and force FFG to bend over backwards to bring the new kids on the block up to speed with the six that we already know and love.

*Prior to the 'Knights of the Hollow Hill' agenda I'd have suggested having an Arryn agenda have an effect like the old-school Eyrie used to, just as a cute nod to the CCG past. However these days I guess that'd feel a bit redundant and having an agenda that had an effect like old-school promo-card Eyrie (opponents need 5 extra power to win) would probably just encourage other players (especially ones running multiple 'the North' agendas) to physically punch you during the setup phase.

LoneWanderer said:

.................ditto.

There is a precedent for introducing a whole new faction/house with continued monthly Pack support here .

This winter, Call of Cthulhu LCG will now be officially 8 factions strong (increased by 1 from the well-established 7) + neutrals in each Asylum Pack released henceforth.

I'm not saying this should be done with AGoT. I actually prefer it at 6 as it is now...my personal sweet spot may actually be even lower, since I casually collect cards for ALL of the houses (meaning multiple packs and boxes for a non-competitive & non-tourney player such as myself).

This topic actually came up over breakfast between some friends and I today, and we were all in agreement that the Arryns should be neutral. There is no need to introduce a seventh (or more) house to the game, and the Arryns, for all the power the house has held in the past, had not been involved in the intrigues for the crown or the fights of the realm. Littlefinger doesn't count for what he is doing to the Arryns and the Vale, because he has his own agenda and is using them to obtain what he wants (which is still open to debate).

However, it would be cool to see more Arryn cards enter into the game, like when House of Talons was released. If Arryn were to ever have become a seventh house, that would have been the time.

Of course, don't forget that if Martin ever makes a move to finish another novel, he could overrule FFG and demand that Arryn be it's own standalone house like he did with the Martells. They were originally going to be a neutral faction until Martin said that they really needed to be their own house.

I think that was less GRRM "over-ruling" FFG and more making them aware of a direction in the epic that the novels hadn't reached yet. House GJ was the same way; the cards pre-dated the released material about them (that eventually became part of AFfC) that made it obvious they had a much bigger role to play in the story.

Uh... this is a spoiler....

It was revealed that Lyssa and Littlefinger were the ones that got Stark and Lannister fighting in the first place. So I would say they do have a role to play in the books.

I also strongly dislike neutral factions... to me it undermines the nedliness of the game. I do not want to see Arryn as a neutral faction... that will just mean the more powerful cards will be in a std house deck, and the Arryns do not work for other houses. They work for themselves (Littlefinger and Lysa).

I'd rather have 2 less neutral cards per cp to see house arryn cards. As for themes: Spending power for effects, dueling (not exactly jousting... more like in lieu of the challenge a 1 on 1 challenge where the loser dies.), claim reduction, and booting characters from challenges. Some of these have been explored... but I think there is room for a house led by a sly Littlefinger and a isolated culture of old tradition.

bloodycelt said:

Hmm, this is a good point from a thematic point of view. But like Ktom asked earlier, what game mechanics would really distinguish Arryn?

In retrospect, they might have been good as "The Shadows" House since they do kind of operate from shadows and in subtle behind the scenes way (esp with what you said)? They did seem to have character control mechanics that were trait based so maybe trait manipulation?

I'm sure if they wanted to, they could make House Arryn play differently from the other six houses. Some card games have more than six factions and with some overlap, are still able to make them feel distinct. There's plenty I could think of so the designers should have no trouble, and make it balanced as well. My question then, because I may have missed it the first time if it was addressed during the ccg, is why not?

I don't think I've heard many people who were viciously opposed to House Arryn. If anything, it seems a lot of players (maybe a vocal minority) would want them introduced, and if so, wouldn't that hypothetically make money for the game? If the reasons are mainly because of licensing issues or prohibited specifically from being made, then I can understand. If it's just because of not feeling like it or worrying it would be too much, then I can understand less.

Spoiler warning and for Bloodycelt:

Lysa's message to Cat was intended to keep the Starks away from King's Landing. After all, Cat's first instinct was for Ned not to go, and Lysa would have known that. Littlefinger had to work around Ned being in King's Landing. If you want to keep up this discussion, let's move it to the Spoiler Section. It can be great speculation/interpretation discussion.

If house Arryn were suddenly to become a house in its own right, you'd then have the strange situation of existing house Arryn cards not being playable by kneeling "vale fiefdoms" (or equivalent), and not getting benefits from various other cards that would presumably be introduced.

Add in prior comments about the "fury of the..." plots and so on, and it seems that even if the required number of cards were to be quickly built up, it would be a heftily skewed deck.

Of the 6 houses we already have (leaving neutral ones aside for the moment) it seems that only 5 really get played - 7% Greyjoy decks at Gencon, despite one of them being good enough to make the final 8. By all means lets have more cards with the "House Arryn" trait, but why confuse life by trying to shoehorn in another house at this stage in proceedings?

Mighty Jim said:

Well it's a card game not brain surgery. If they can introduce new mechanics, agendas, and phases, then a new house that brings similar changes isn't that complicated. I think it'd be great mainly for flavor purposes, to add variety and options for playgroups that like to claim houses and split resources, and just to shake up the game and add something really big and exciting and new. They did it by introducing Greyjoy and then Martell to the LCG.

Really, if you're a stickler for the source material, then Arryn should be its own house, complete with cool color specific template. I'd rather play the characters as a whole, rather than splash a bunch of neutral Arryns into a different deck. Doesn't feel as cool, no house pride.

I agree adding Arryn as a new House. Also in Chtulhu they are making the same thing so, with a Core Set, they can easily be introduced in the game...

And since there are so few Arryn trait card so far no problem of inconsistency. The "Fury of" problem is not a problem cause they can print it in the core set.

Gualdo said:

Here's a question: With the "Neutral Faction" House card, would printing a bunch of House Arryn cards as neutrals and making them a "trait House," like Wildlings, NW, Brotherhood, etc. be enough? You could play the "House" w/o splashing it into a different one. And it might even be more thematic in the sense that House Arryn pretty much has left the question of who sits the Iron Throne to others.

ktom said:

I suppose for myself, if the synergy was distinct and they brought something new to the table, then maybe. It would still detract somewhat though seeing certain Arryn characters being splashed into multiple decks alongside Lannisters and Targs and whoever else. I think it ruins the themes. Having just gotten back in, I can't say if this is the case in the new model, but I don't remember back in the ccg era, seeing many out of house uniques appearing in decks for other houses unless they were running Treaty. I just think it would be cool to see a new house card and themes for a house with a distinct identity and in that sense, the neutral house card wouldn't satisfy.

ktom said:

I agree with you ktom, not only does it make sense for another batch for chapter packs but I still think it keeps it thematic. I believe most people would like it but in their heads they would see those grey cards as sky blue.

My next question - what sort of game mechanics would Arryn play around with? Let's think of their themes: staying neutral - leave the fighting to the others, mountains, nigh-on impregnable castles........at this stage it's pretty hard to come up with much more. Most of Arryn's traits and actions in the books are all dependent on one character - Lysa Tully.

Rydo72 said:

You could switch that up and go with the "holed up in the Vale" theme. You get insane benefits if no one wins a challenge against you in a particular phase, but insane drawbacks if someone does. For example, a character that claims 3 power at the end of the phase if no one won a challenge against you, but raises the opponent's claim by 1 in the first challenge you lose each phase. That could bite into Stark's defense theme, but maybe not.

ktom said:

Completely agree that a small box expansion takes care of this. Veteran posters on this board know that I've long called for all 9 of the Great Houses from the books to be their own house (that would add Arryn, Tully, and Tyrell). I understand (though don't necessarily agree) with the viewpoint that adding houses might not necessarily add that much to the game other than being more true to the source material.

I think that there are more than enough mechanics to distinguish adding a house (or 3). We already have the challenge types split among six houses, splitting among 9 (still divisiable by 3) is easily done. Most mechanics in the past haven't been the sole 'property' of one house anyway. The combination of 2-3 strengths is really what defines a house/gives it it's flavor. Furthermore, there's really no reason that each house has to get/have the same number of cards available (FFG wouldn't have to catch a new house up, but could issue the small expansion, and have 1-2 cards per chapter pack).

ktom said:

The reason I'm not a fan of House Arryn as a nuetral house, is that you lose flavor if you later want to add House Royce (or say Mallister under Tully, or Redwyne for Tyrell, etc). There's really nothing linking them to Arryn then in the game, they're not all that different than Night's Watch, wildlings, or Brotherhood characters.

ktom said:

The "problem" in this scenario are the missing events... If there could be a way to have "arryn events only" or similar could be a solution. I think a viable solution can be also Arryn agendas (or for other houses). But if this would be the way new house cards would be simplier.

When we will see (read) next martin book we will have also a cleare idea about how to consider "minor houses" depending on their involvement into the story.

I don't get the concern over the Fury and To be cycles - are we really getting hung up over three year old mechanics? (And 80% of the To Be events never see play anyway). Give the arryns a high gold House only plot and the "problem" is solved.

Thsi is one of the most venerable and distinctive Houses in Westeros - it really needs to be separate and distinct from the others in the game.