I have made a lot of changes to the original list that I posted here, and those two weapons systems you mention I removed the suggested limitations for. The list has been severly shortened, and for reference I can add the list (after modifications) as I have it right now:

• Storm Bolter; require an SB of 6.
• Heavy Bolter; require an SB of 6, OR the Auto-Stablilized Trait and SB 5, OR a Tripod Mount, OR SB 4 and a Bipod mount.
• Autocannon; require an SB 10, OR a Tripod Mount.
• Plasma Cannon; require an SB of 7.
• MP Lascannon; require an SB of 8, OR a Tripod Mount.
• Assault Cannon; require an SB of 10 (after all modifications) and the Auto-Stablilized Trait.
• Multi-laser; require a Vehicle mount (power source assumed to be to big/bulky/heavy to be carried by any man).
• Heavy Flamer; doesn't require any Bracing at all to be fired, and can not in any way benefit from having a Bipod or Tripod Mount.

First of all, the above limitations overrule any use of the Bulging Biceps Talent, or normal rules of Bracing (i.e. you can't just slap an Bipiod on an AutoCannon, and you are good to go (unless you have the needed SB in the first place).

I have worked on the list somewhat since the last time, but I still FIRMLY believe that basing the use of such massive, bulky and powerful weaponry (often described as having a tremendous recoil) just on Weight/Bulging Biceps Talent is not nearly enough. Some people may disagree, and that is fine, but for those who think that "normal (non-augmented) humans lugging around the likes of autocannons and such weaponry is a bit "off", considering the 40k setting as portrayed in the years after Necromunda, this might be something for you to try out.

The list is not complete by any means, but it does include most of the weaponry that are descriped/depicted in the fluff (not Necromunda though) as being beyond normal soldiers to "use" alone.

Finally, I agree with you on what you say regarding Stubbers and Missile Launchers.

The Heavy Stubber can be the 40k equivalent of an M-60, and can be carried and used withing hte normal rules.
The missile launcher might go both ways, since they come in many sizes (some even with their own "seat", but in the end I came to the conclusion that it aslo worked fine within the standing rules. My original though was to distinguish it from the RPG Launcher, but as you say, even though it is a 35kg weapon (as listed), it is perfectly possible for normal soldiers to fire one (although they would probably use a Tripod (as in the I.G codex) if they had one available and were going to fire a bunch of missiles, but that has little to do with the rules as such.

borithan said:

To avoid any confuison, Azzazael is me. I discovered that I had a near identical former username (probably from long ago). Didn't realize I had logged on with that username whn I posted the reply.

To say that the DH rulebook is perfect because it has been around for some time is nonsense. Despite errata, there are still alot of mechanics in this game that is wonky, hardly functional or just unbalanced.

That said I agree with the naysayers, sorry OP but you've gone overboard with your changes. Especially the Heavy Bolter should be used by "normal" Stormtroopers with enough strength to carry these around without penalty. SB 6 is insanely high unless you're talking orks or Space Marines. Even SB 5 is WAY above the normal range for humans. If you really need an arbitrary SB number for shooting these, 4 would be more appropriate and represents a very strong human, possibly on stereoids (I.E Heavy). Remember that characteristics are generally low in this game compared to WHFRPG, which is easily seen on the NPC list in the core rulebook.

Friend of the Dork said:

It's what I would expect SoB in power armour to be really. And they can walk around with heavy bolters, muli-melta's...

I've alsways said that I couldn't see it being possible to carry and fire autocannon because that must be tremendous recoil, but that's just me and I always thought that it was jsut an omission that you could walk around with an assault cannon.

Face Eater said:

SOBs are essentially female versions on Space Marines, at least in functionality if not pure power. These power armor girls can probably use Astartes weapons with their armors.

And yeah I need no extra rules to prevent my PCs trying to hipshoot with Autocannons - it was kinda obvious that this is a weapon that must be used on a tripod or vehicle mount. An assault cannon (minigun?) I could perhaps see fired from the hip if you can carry all that, which pretty much requires something like 6 SB. The point is to use the rules for Load.

Friend of the Dork said:

I'm not saying that it's perfect, just that it has been around for long enough that any drastic changes need serious thought.

Chaplain Uziel, removing the unnatural strength requirement is an improvement. Even when the characteristic bonus is going to be impossible without the unnatural characteristic.

My next post will detail the problems I have with your current changes.

Your rules are incomplete

Your weapons list doesn't cover all the heavy weapons that exist. If a group was using your rules and a player wanted to use a heavy weapon you haven't restated, what restrictions should be imposed ?
You will need to cover this for all of them because of three reasons:
- Varied circumstances that make the more powerful weapon less useful (such as it simply not being available on that planet).
- Players who stick with inferior weapons because of rp reasons. I like these players.
- Min/maxers who want the stats of every weapon so they can know which weapons they can and can't use.
The best solution would be for you to post the algorithm you use to calculate these restrictions. Some tips for the algorithm:
- If you rely on any external sources, make sure that the sources can be consistently applied to all heavy weapons. If the source can't be applied to everything, it is a very questionable source. For example, if your algorithm and one of the heavy weapons doesn't have a human sized variant show up in any codex, then you are back to there being heavy weapons you haven't told people how to calculate new requirements for.
- If you require people to purchase things they don't already own, you need a really good reason.
- Any step saying something like 'use your common sense' is almost always more accurate if you replace it with 'now perform an instruction that I am not going to tell you'.

Releasing the algorithm also takes care of any complaints about your changes being inconsistent.

Since almost all classes don't get the auto-stabilised trait through character advances, you will be needing to make something like the RT suspensor available to players. How does a suspensor affect the heavy weapons that don't require auto-stabilised ?
We are talking about a component that reduces how long a burst takes, meaning it can compensate for recoil.

You're ignoring toughness
Both strength and toughness increase a characters carrying capacity. Why do all your changes require strength, instead of a combination of strength and toughness ?

Realism
We could argue about how realistic your changes are. But that argument won't have any relevance unless you can tell me why realistic rules are better than fun rules.
Especially when your RPG group prefers fun rules to realism. Specifically their preference towards melee combat despite ranged combat being the expected norm in any realistic future.

You're trying to fix a problem that has already been solved
Most groups prevent heavy weapons becoming a problem by using the RAW and having NPCs behave realistically. All of your examples of heavy weapons still being a problem involve at least one of the following:
- Gifts from the gm they could abuse. Such as a vehicle to carry the heavy weapon (a bulky weapon will take up a lot of room), or the money to buy a heavy weapon.
- Unjustified assumptions: Lots of combat happens near the vehicle so they don't make the fatigue test, players seeming eager to take dodge penalties to become a bullet magnet.
- Things that are a problem elsewhere, like psychic healing which is very fast and risk free if you let it use fettered rules.

Your rules don't fix the problem
Best case: All your rules do is increase how much the problem player must invest before they become a problem, meaning they will be more annoyed about 'wasted xp' when you come to deal with it.
Not quite worst case: They become a problem without using heavy weapons.
Worst case : Since you force them to make a character with a penalty to dodge, they decide to make a problem character that doesn't even try to dodge. Such as a tech-priest character who relies on his armour and toughness to survive, while using his reaction to fire a ballistic mechadendrite.

Your rules punish players who would have reasonable use of heavy weapons
You make heavy weapons a larger investment for everyone, including forcing them to take a permanent agility penalty from synthetic muscle grafts just so they can make occasional use of heavy weapons.

Your rules are inconsistent

Why is a storm bolter on your list of 'heavy weapons' ?

It's a basic weapon, meaning that its recoil would be much less than that of heavier weapons.

Why does the storm bolter have harsher requirements than the heavy bolter ?

The storm bolter fires 8 rounds in a burst. The heavy bolter fires 10 and it uses large ammunition.

Why are the requirements for a heavy flamer so much less than a Lascannon ?

The rules for flame weapons make me think of a weapon that is being waved around, instead of a weapon with a fixed cone. So while the heavy flamer is being moved a lot, the lascannon is relativity stationary. The Lascannon has no recoil, the heavy flamer would have some. The Lascannon being 10kg heavier isn't enough to explain this discrepancy.

Actually, I don't see why the heavy flamer would have recoil either. In fact, there is probably greater justification of having Lascannons with recoil, since Lasguns are described to have recoil. No, it's not a laser pointer.

Flamers squirt Promithium (a substance like napalm or white phosphorous) which either ignites in air or with a flame at the muzzle of the weapon. A heavy flamer is like a normal flamer, except it's heavier and often vehicle mounted, so it can squirt longer and for a longer time.

Friend of the Dork said:

Lasers having recoil is one of those things in 40k I find too stupid and prefer to ignore.

As for the flamer, all that matters is that promethium is liquid when squirted from the flamer, probably via a high pressure nozzle to increase the range. So I compare it to something else that produces a stream of liquid: A garden hose.

My garden hose has noticeable recoil when the water travels far less than the listed range on a flamer.

Bilateralrope said:

I personally used a simple houserule: bulging biceps weren't made for Autocannons and Assault Cannons, they were made for reasonnably man-portable heavy weapons. A Heavy Stubber is such a weapon. Maybe a heavy bolter. Not a dreadnought-mounted weapon.

Werewindlefr said:

I understand how a laser would produce some recoil through radiation pressure. However, for it to be noticeable you will need a very powerful laser. How strong ?

I'm not sure, I'm going to want to see the math on it. I would guess that the laser would need to be powerful enough that other things become a problem before the recoil is noticed, but I can't be sure either way until I see the numbers. I'll post them when I find someone who knows how to run them.

As for your house rule, it sounds like you are dividing heavy weapons into two groups:

- Heavy weapons which are only usable when vehicle mounted.

- Heavy weapons which can be used according to the RAW.

I don't care how you are dividing the weapons into each category.

If I have misunderstood your house rule, please correct me.

Bilateralrope said:

You are absolutely correct as for my houserule. Although "tripod-mounted/terminator-mounted" is fine, too.

As for the lasers, well, for a ~2MJ laser pulse (enough to boil 1 liter of water, so I'll assume it's the order of magnitude of a single lasgun shot):

E=pc -> p=E/c = 2*10^6/(3*10^8)= 6.66*10^(-3) kg.m/s of momentum exchange. If you consider a .01 second pulse, that would give you a .66 N recoil force. So yes. that's weak. But if you're talking about a lascanon, you probably have to multiply those figures by a hundred or something -it *can* instantly melt Leman Russ armor. ~100 N of recoil force wouldn't surprise me. I don't know how it compares to a gun, though, but I assume it's substantially weaker.

But then, Warhammer 40k's physics are the rule of cool, and DH runs on the rule of simple and homogeneous fun rules.

Bilateralrope said:

Well your garden hose "recoil" is probably almost negligible compared to pistols, rifles etc. It also matters that the recoil of a hose/water cannon is constant as you fire, instead of a sharp quick kick from a rifle. That said, a Heavy Flamer, like a RL watercannon will probably need to be Braced to fire properly, or fired from the hip as you would fire a MG34 - legs spread out, leaning back and bracing with the hip of you body (making movement or aiming more difficult).

As far as realism goes (if you are actually going for that) as long as the rules enable a 12 yr old skinny kid to fire an M50 equivalent (heavy stubber) while it is on a bipod then it's fine. I have actually done this, so I know it is realistic. I did not carry it around though. It does indicate that not much strength at all is really required to "use" it.

The heavy flamer is probably closer to a fire-hose in recoil, and considering it is kind of instant on and instant off, that would be a lot of recoil.