Let's say the Crown of Winter is in play, and the Crown of Azor Ahai is in play, too.

Crown of Winter:

If the Black Raven card is not in play, it is Winter.

Crown of Azor Ahai:

If Crown of Azor Ahai is standing and the White Raven card is not in play, it is Summer.

Assuming the Crown of Azor Ahai is standing, and there are no other ravens in play, is it both Summer and Winter?

Yes, it would be both seasons.

I was sure that this would lead to a bunch of conflicting game states, but as I look through the cards, it seems like the designers did their jobs well. And Taxed Dry becomes a really nasty card to play on an opponent's gold location when it's both summer and winter.

The only tricky card I've noticed is the " Kings of Winter " agenda:

If it's both Summer and Winter, and my opponent has 3 cards in hand and I have 4, could this lead to an infinite loop that causes my opponent to cycle through his deck and lose? It's summer, so he draws a card, it's winter, so he discards a card, and so on? Or does each effect trigger only once?

Whoo, this is strange.

i can see all sorts of cards getting stuck in loops/strange situations-

Priestess of the Pyre - would have to both stand and kneel (or would it be kneel and stand, the difference could be crucial) every time an event was played

Summer's champion would gain renown, but have minus 2 strength, and be unable to attack or defend

Theon (time of ravens) would kill someone, but at least they'd die standing up

Lots of cards would return to your hands, despite having their abilities triggered

All in all, i really can't see this working- surely there must be some kind of override to stop these things happening?

Mighty Jim said:

Hilarious, really.

And something has to be said about being summer and winter at the same time.... and decided, rules-wise.

Mighty Jim said:

Yeah, run the Ravens!

Really though, there is no conflict with it being both seasons. Sure, funny things may happen, but there is no card that "blows up" the game because it is both seasons. The rules don't need to be changed. They already address the issues that have been listed.

When two passive effects would initiate at the same time, the first player decides what order they will resolve in (similar to how the first player chooses the order in which plots are revealed).

For Kings of Winter there is no loop. Each effect happens once and only once at the end of the draw phase. For example, at the end of the draw phase we both have 6 cards. You're first player and you are running Kings of Winter. It's both seasons so you decide to have the Summer effect resolve first. Since I don't have less cards in hand than you, I don't draw a card. Now the Winter effect resolves. Since I have the same amount of cards in hand as you, I randomly discard a card from my hand. Had you chosen the effects to resolve the opposite way, I would have lost a card but then drew one.

Same goes for Priestess of the Pyre . The first player decides the order in which the stand and kneel effects resolve, which ultimately decides if she is standing or kneeling.

Summer Champion and Theon Greyjoy would behave as described.

Crown of Winter and Crown of Azor Ahai are really cool, but the fact remains is that if you want it to be a specific season then run the Ravens.

I think you all are missing the point of this Summer-Winter incongruence: What the f*** should I wear?

eloooooooi said:

I think I'll let ktom handle this rules decision

Mighty Jim said:

They're conflicting passives. The First Player would decide the order.

Mighty Jim said:

That's right. Both resolve. So what's the problem here?

Mighty Jim said:

Again, both effects apply. So what's the problem?

Mighty Jim said:

Like what? The "return to hand if it is Summer/Winter" effects are going to be constant effects, so the cards will never be in play long enough to trigger anything.

Mighty Jim said:

I don't see why it wouldn't work. If it is both Summer and Winter, both effects apply. If there is a conflict, the First Player resolves the order in which the effects are resolved. There really aren't any cards that create any sort of paradox when you apply that reasoning. The only card I can think of that is truly mutually exclusive is Kings of Summer. In that one, the Summer and Winter effects (draw one more + draw one less) cancel each other out and you draw 2 cards.

ktom said:

However, it should be noted that in the "Kings of Summer" case, even though you only draw two cards during the draw phase, your draw cap is effectively reduced to 2 (since the card you drew for Kings of Summer counted against your draw cap).

Thanks for chiming in, ktom. Your insight is appreciated.

actually the third card you draw from kings of summer doesn't count towards the draw cap, since the agenda basically modifies your draw in the draw phase from two to three cards. it doesn't give you an extra card so you could still draw three extra cards from other effects. 8)

Kissing_Crimson said:

Actually it does (see FAQ).

oops, my bad! thanks for correcting me.