I'm new at this game and I have some questions about ships components.
1.What is it the maximum number of archaotech components a ship can legally have? I believe I can get 3 archaotech components from both Machine Spirit Oddities and Past Histories. I heard that you can also get one archaotech component from the rogue traders warrant of trade. It this supposition correct?
2. Can you have multiple bridges or your ship must have only 1 bridge?
3. What is the deal with components ship points? Please explain. Some components ship points have a + in front of the ship points values, what does that mean?
4. What are the stats for Strelov 1 Warp Engine,Strelov 2 Warp Engine, i don't find them anywhere?
5. Is this ship legal?
Tyrant Cruiser
Planet Bound for millennia, Ancient and Wise
Space 77 all used,
Power 85 all used,
Hull integrity between 61-65 ,
weapons 1Prow(Jovian Missile Battery 3P 1S 6R 1SP) 2 Port(Mars Pattern Macrocannon
Broadside , Sunsear Laser Battery 10P 9S 6R 9R 2SP) 2 Starbord(Mars Pattern Macrocannon
Broadside , Sunsear Laser Battery 10P 9S 6R 9R 2SP)
Essential components:
Modified Jovian Pattern Class 4 Drive, Markov 1 Warp Drive, Gellar Field ,Emergency Field , Warpsbane Hull ,Repulsor Shield Array, Ship Master’s Bridge ,Bridge of Antiquity, Ancient Life Sustainer ,Clan Kin Quarters ,Deep Void Auger Array.
Supplemental components
Auxiliary Plasma Banks ,Empyream Mantle, Cargo Hold and Lighter Bay, Astrophatic Choir Chambers ,Arboretum, Extended Supply Vaults , Librarium Vault, Temple-shrine to the God Emperor, Munitorium, Tenebro-Maze ,Augmented Retro-thrusters, Broadband Hymn-casters.
Can you recommend what would a well rounded weapon configuration for this ship or what components should I add or remove for a well rounded cruiser for a rogue trader. What kind of rogue traders warrants will allow to build and maintain this ship? Is this ship too powerful and if true what kind of adventures should I use this ship ?

Please help me with this questions and thank you for the time you have taken to answer this questions.

The Strelov warp engines are your basic warp engines. They allow ships to enter warp.

You can only have one bridge, as you can only have one essential component from each category. Same with gellar field, emergency field and warpsbane hull. They are all gellar field types.

Weapons, there are a few schools of thought, depends on your space and power requirements.

In a hurry, so I'll only deal with the questions I can answer quickly.

thor2006 said:

As a Bridge is an essential component, you can only have one.
thor2006 said:

Ship points, for the most part, serve only to determine what you can and can't have during ship creation., as well as determining the availability of components for the purposes of later acquisitions. Essential components, because they must be included, list their Ship Points value (if any; as they have to be included, some of their value is assumed to have already been paid for in the ship's cost) as +1 or +2. Supplemental components, being entirely optional, list their Ship Points as 1, 2 and 3.

thor2006 said:

Aside from allowing a ship to travel through the Warp, Strelov 1 and Strelov 2 Warp Engines have no specific rules. They can be found on page 199 of the rulebook.

How much space and power will occupy on the ship the starchart collection? Do the Gelar field and Emergency Field can be taken with Warpsbane hull?

Tyrant Cruiser
Planet Bound for millennia, Ancient and Wise
Space 77 all used,
Power 85 83 used,
Hull integrity between 61-65 ,
weapons 1Prow(Jovian Missile Battery 3P 1S 6R 1SP) 2 Port(Mars Pattern Macrocannon
Broadside , Sunsear Laser Battery 10P 9S 6R 9R 2SP) 2 Starbord(Mars Pattern Macrocannon
Broadside , Sunsear Laser Battery 10P 9S 6R 9R 2SP)
Essential components:
Modified Jovian Pattern Class 4 Drive, Markov 1 Warp Drive, Warpsbane Hull ,Repulsor Shield Array,Bridge of Antiquity, Ancient Life Sustainer ,Clan Kin Quarters ,Deep Void Auger Array.
Supplemental components
Auxiliary Plasma Banks ,Empyream Mantle, Cargo Hold and Lighter Bay, Astrophatic Choir Chambers ,Arboretum, Extended Supply Vaults , Librarium Vault, Temple-shrine to the God Emperor, Munitorium, Tenebro-Maze ,Augmented Retro-thrusters, Broadband Hymn-casters, Observation Dome, Murder-Servitors, Xenos Habitats.

Is this ship legal?

What kind of modifications can you also recommend
What kind of warrant of trade allows you to get an archeotech component?
How can you acquire an xenotech component?
For a Tyrant Cruiser what kind of weapons do you recommend? Where are the details for the cruiser torpedoes?

1.What is it the maximum number of archaotech components a ship can legally have? I believe I can get 3 archaotech components from both Machine Spirit Oddities and Past Histories. I heard that you can also get one archaotech component from the rogue traders warrant of trade. It this supposition correct?

There's the Reliquary or Mars Past History which can give you one. I can't find a mentioning of them in the Warrant and Ship Origin path if that's what you mean. Thullian Explorator Vessel has another component, Planetbound for Millenia grants a modified drive and another component of choice.

How can you acquire an xenotech component?

Either by having the xenophile Past History or by having Halo Devices in your Warrant&Ship Origin. I really, really wouldn't recommend mixing Archeotech and Xeno tech though, or you risk making an enemy of the AdMech - they certainly won't like seeing their holy relics being despoiled by association with unclean xeno stuff. Then again, they might not be exactly friendly towards a vessel outside their own fleet sporting three or four archeotech devices anyway...

thor2006 said:

If you have the Reliquary of Mars past history you can have as many as you can afford, as far as I can see. The ship has "ancient archaeo-tech system s [plural]" and "holy component s [plural]". You must select 1 Archeotech Component, but I read that as "[ at least ] 1".

Also, the -20 penalty to Repair checks applies to everything, not just one component, suggesting that it's not just a single transplant.

Reliquary of Mars isn't too powerful? If you can afford you can replace almost your entire ship with archeotech components? Iku Rex said:

Reliquary of Mars isn't too powerful? If you can afford you can replace almost your entire ship with archeotech components?

Rex is just inept at reading comprehension. "You must select one" means one and only one.

Kalec Fash said:

There's nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. If I see a sign in a store saying "you must be 21 to buy alcohol" I don't assume that there is a strict alcohol prohibition for everyone except people who are exactly 21 years old. Context matters.

Like I said, the -20 penalty applies to the entire ship, implying that the entire ship is packed with archeotech. Like I said, the text states that the tech priests regard the vessel as "having holy components" [plural]. In case your reading comprehension doesn't extend to the word "plural", it means "more than one".

Want more?

Let's turn to the very next page. "A ship must have one (no more) Component from each of the following categories, ..." Apparently at least one of the people writing that chapter felt that "no more" was a useful or even necessary addition to a similar rule.

What about the archeotech section? "[T]hese Components should only be available if the ship has the Reliquary of Mars Complication, the players earn them through their Warrant of Trade, or if the GM makes them available through the course of the game." Or to rephrase the key part: "Archeotech components are available if the ship has the Reliquary of Mars Complication". That would be a good place to mention an "only one" restriction - without the Reliquary of Mars text there is no ambiguity at all.

Is this 100% conclusive? No. It's possible that the intent was that you must one and only one archeotech component. But IMO my interpretation makes more sense. The best argument in favor of the "and only one" interpretation is that allowing multiple components does make Reliquary of Mars a very good result (like thor2006 said). But it's not like all the other results are entirely balanced, and archeotech comes with extra ship point costs.

Iku Rex said:

Game mechanic terms are capitalised, per FFG's style guides for all 40kRP books, so you can spot them easily. The "having holy components" part is purely background text, and thus not directly relevant to the matter of interpreting the rules. Beyond that, as background text, it should be remembered that a given startship system (a Component in game terms) will be comprised of many smaller subsystems and elements, which may be in their own right considered components from a purely background perspective.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yes, it's background text, so even if the style guide was followed consistently - it's not - you wouldn't expect capitalization. Surely the default assumption should be that the writer isn't jumping from definition to definition when he's using the word in a similar context in the same paragraph.

Your interpretation makes some of the options in Into the Storm pretty useless BTW. Having a ship from the Age of Rebirth (from the warrant path), or the Planet-Bound for Millennia background, gives you access to a component. I guess you have to save up for a whole Component or something. There are similar problems in the Core starships chapter, such as what happens with an armoured bridge on a crit. (None of which are real problems if one shows a little common sense.)

Why do you think all Reliquary of Mars ships get the -20 repair penalty? It's not a general rule for archeotech. If it represents all sorts of archeotech systems (not "Components") on the ship, isn't it a bit odd that these wonderful systems never ever grant more than a single archeotech benefit compared to regular tech?

My question has always been: several of the Archeotech components say 'can be used as'. Would this not mean that, conversly, they also might not be taken as that essential component?

@BaronIveagh

My question has always been: several of the Archeotech components say 'can be used as'. Would this not mean that, conversly, they also might not be taken as that essential component?

I'd assume that this is more along the lines of "You can use this as your [Essential Component] - or you can just abstain from using it at all".

@Iku Rex

There's nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. If I see a sign in a store saying "you must be 21 to buy alcohol" I don't assume that there is a strict alcohol prohibition for everyone except people who are exactly 21 years old. Context matters.

Yeah, but that context might be read a little differently: Normally, you can't get Archeotech. With this background, you must get 1 part, presumably lifting the ban on getting at least one part of archeotech. I don't read anything that suggests getting more than this one piece is fine.

Why do you think all Reliquary of Mars ships get the -20 repair penalty? It's not a general rule for archeotech. If it represents all sorts of archeotech systems (not "Components") on the ship, isn't it a bit odd that these wonderful systems never ever grant more than a single archeotech benefit compared to regular tech?

It isn't. Most imperial ships are essentially patchwork, with newer and older systems integrated, retrofitted and upgraded. A reliquary of Mars has one archeotech component (presumably the oldest of the ship) whose subsystems along with the systems of other archeotech components that no longer exist are woven through the entire ship, thus making the interactions with the rest of the tech a bit... wonky. Ask any programmer about legacy code and hear him groan. Look at it from the other side: Do you really think the AdMech would hand over a ship consisting wholly of archeotech as it would be createable using your interpretation to a Rogue trader? To plough the edges of the galaxy, where there's a very real chance of being destroyed sooner or later?
Not to forget the cost/gain relation of archeotech systems is a lot better than normal components - compared to any other ship background, this one would be ridiculously overpowered.

Cifer said:

Where is the logical place to look for rules on archeotech components? The section on archeotech components (page 206). "[T]hese Components should only be available if the ship has the Reliquary of Mars Complication, the players earn them through their Warrant of Trade, or if the GM makes them available through the course of the game. " Or to rephrase the key part: "Archeotech components are available if the ship has the Reliquary of Mars Complication" . It doesn't flat out contradict your interpretation, but it would be a good place to mention an "only one" restriction if that was the intent.

Let me ask you this: If the sentence about having to 1 archotech component wasn't there, would you still assume that you were only allowed to pick a single Archotech Component? Based on the fluff text and the rule in the archotech component section?

Cifer said:

Sure, I too can come up with reasons why a ship with only one component still has the penalty. After all, some Reliquary of Mars ships will only have one component, no matter which interpretation you use. The question was why there's never ever more than one component. (It has to do with what you would expect to be the case upon learning about "ancient archaeo-tech systems" all over the ship. Context.)

Cifer said:

Who says they "handed over" anything? Maybe it was bought from someone else. Maybe it was salvaged. Or if it was "handed over", maybe it was a spectacular reward for returning some (other) piece of holy tech, and/or in return for future archeotech finds on the edges of the galaxy.

The fluff does not demand that the AdMech confiscate every piece of interesting tech they hear about. If they really want it they can trade for it. And apparently they don't value it that highly.

Note that into the Storm lets you start with three archeotech components without even rolling (Age of Rebirth warrant, Planet-Bound for Millennia background.) There's nothing about having it confiscated by the AdMech the moment you enter the Imperium. One background package (Thulian Explorator Vessel) even assumes that you've gotten away with salvaging and retrofitting (or buying) an AdMech ship with a working archeotech component.

But yes, the AdMech would no doubt be very interested in such a ship. When describing a ship with multiple archeotech components a game designer might use a name like " Reliquary of Mars ". He might talk about how "tech priests of Mars regard the vessel as holy , or at least having holy components." And maybe mention something about how "some may petition to visit the vessel, others may want it for themselves ." Wait. That's the Reliquary of Mars description isn't it? So that works out well for my interpretation.

Cifer said:

I agree that it's a powerful result compared to most of the others. But it's not like all the results are equal even if you restrict Reliquary of Mars to a single component. And archeotech cost extra. (My impression is that the system generally values profit factor/ship points highly when it comes to balance.)

Where is the logical place to look for rules on archeotech components? The section on archeotech components (page 206). "[T]hese Components should only be available if the ship has the Reliquary of Mars Complication, the players earn them through their Warrant of Trade, or if the GM makes them available through the course of the game." Or to rephrase the key part: "Archeotech components are available if the ship has the Reliquary of Mars Complication". It doesn't flat out contradict your interpretation, but it would be a good place to mention an "only one" restriction if that was the intent.

Let me ask you this: If the sentence about having to 1 archotech component wasn't there, would you still assume that you were only allowed to pick a single Archotech Component? Based on the fluff text and the rule in the archotech component section?

In that case, yes, I would assume it would make more sense not to limit the components. Well, technically, I'd use that tiny little Rules Question link down at the bottom of the page because that would be one powerful background.
On the other hand side, the possible Warrant of Trade also only allows one piece of archeotech.

Sure, I too can come up with reasons why a ship with only one component still has the penalty. After all, some Reliquary of Mars ships will only have one component, no matter which interpretation you use. The question was why there's never ever more than one component. (It has to do with what you would expect to be the case upon learning about "ancient archaeo-tech systems" all over the ship. Context.)

No, the question was very specifically "Why does every Reliquary of Mars ship have these complications?" to which I provided a possible answer. Read for yourself:
Why do you think all Reliquary of Mars ships get the -20 repair penalty? It's not a general rule for archeotech. If it represents all sorts of archeotech systems (not "Components") on the ship, isn't it a bit odd that these wonderful systems never ever grant more than a single archeotech benefit compared to regular tech?
As for your new question... isn't it a bit odd as well that there are Rogue Traders riding around in Battleships, but according to the Core Rules, the PCs don't? There are things that exist in the game world but are not available to PCs, either completely or in the beginning of the game.

Who says they "handed over" anything? Maybe it was bought from someone else. Maybe it was salvaged. Or if it was "handed over", maybe it was a spectacular reward for returning some (other) piece of holy tech, and/or in return for future archeotech finds on the edges of the galaxy.

The fluff does not demand that the AdMech confiscate every piece of interesting tech they hear about. If they really want it they can trade for it. And apparently they don't value it that highly.

Note that into the Storm lets you start with three archeotech components without even rolling (Age of Rebirth warrant, Planet-Bound for Millennia background.) There's nothing about having it confiscated by the AdMech the moment you enter the Imperium. One background package (Thulian Explorator Vessel) even assumes that you've gotten away with salvaging and retrofitting (or buying) an AdMech ship with a working archeotech component.

I think it stands to reason that by combining different rules packages, one can often arrive at consequences that will have to be abjudicated by the GM. I recall fondly the days of D&D 3.5 where it was quite possible (when using about twenty different splatbooks) to have a first level kobold instantly ascend to divinity, becoming the most powerful being of the multiverse.

I agree it's possible to get a ship with one or even a few archeotech components from the AdMech, either because of services rendered to them or because of being filthy rich - but seeing as the AdMech is still a religious cult, this has certain limits. I don't know about you, but for me, a ship wholly consisting of archeotech would be past them and would pretty much set up every Magos of every sector you ever come near to
-barter for the ship,
-threaten you for it or
-have you assassinated - possibly not in that order

Seeing as nearly all people who can actually make this ship move belong to a certain cult, this has relatively good chances of succeeding.

But yes, the AdMech would no doubt be very interested in such a ship. When describing a ship with multiple archeotech components a game designer might use a name like "Reliquary of Mars". He might talk about how "tech priests of Mars regard the vessel as holy, or at least having holy components." And maybe mention something about how "some may petition to visit the vessel, others may want it for themselves." Wait. That's the Reliquary of Mars description isn't it? So that works out well for my interpretation.

No, that's what I (sorry about the fact I'm not a game designer, but I'll probably have to do for now) would use for a vessel with a single archeotech component. One entirely consisting of archeotech would be less "reliquary containing a knuckle of a local saint" and more "Holy Grail wrapped in the Shroud of Turin and propped up against the True Cross".

I agree that it's a powerful result compared to most of the others. But it's not like all the results are equal even if you restrict Reliquary of Mars to a single component. And archeotech cost extra. (My impression is that the system generally values profit factor/ship points highly when it comes to balance.)

While archeotech does cost extra, it's generally more than worth it.

I more or less agree with Rex. The fact is that some Rogue Trader dynasties might have simply gotten their ships before archeotech became archeotech, In fluff, most of the ship of the early Imperium are much more advanced then later ones. (Consider the differences between BFG Chaos and IN ships and then read the rules for the Reserve Fleets of Segmentum Obscurus.)

The Sword class, for example, was just coming into service at beginning of the Heresy. The Dauntless is of unknown age, though it's similarities to the Lunar suggest a more recent initial production. The Lunar (and it's variants) however, didn't come in until M37. (Which is something I've wondered about, as, by Imperial standards, the Lunar is brand spanking new. Why would any of them have archeotech? Shouldn't it be more common for Rogue traders to have the older Kar-Dunish and Murder classes? Particularly the Murder , as it was the Lunar' s predecessor and every shipyard in the Imperium launched hundreds of them during it's four thousand year run as the Imperium's main line cruiser)

The warrant of trade allows one archeotech regardless of ship history.

I more or less agree with Rex. The fact is that some Rogue Trader dynasties might have simply gotten their ships before archeotech became archeotech, In fluff, most of the ship of the early Imperium are much more advanced then later ones. (Consider the differences between BFG Chaos and IN ships and then read the rules for the Reserve Fleets of Segmentum Obscurus.)

While there may be quite a few Rogue Trader dynasties that originally received a ship that would nowadays be considered archeotech, I'd consider it doubtful that too many of them still have that very same one with the exact same components. One single high-level critical hit can irreparably destroy an archeotech component.

Which is something I've wondered about, as, by Imperial standards, the Lunar is brand spanking new. Why would any of them have archeotech?

Presumably because at a certain amount of damage, it becomes easier to just salvage the most valuable systems of a hulked ship instead of replacing 80% of its components.

Only if the odd abstraction of game rules were actually the way the fluff universe worked. Consider: You can have a crit against a component, without damaging other components that you would have to shoot through to hit it. The way the rules are written does not take the ship's layout into account (other then the Maze) at all. To get the sort of damage you seem to be describing would take a drive explosion, which usually obliterates the ship anyway.

Further, actually, it's more likely that they WOULD try and rebuild the wrecked hull, as ANY starship hull is worth more then it's components. Though granted, some of them would be harder to replace then others. (Scartix engine coils)

Cifer said:

I was repeating the question you just quoted me asking you , slightly paraphrased! " sn't it a bit odd that these wonderful systems never ever grant more than a single archeotech benefit compared to regular tech?"

Cifer said:

Of course there are, which I why I made sure to explain to you that the point I was making had to do with what you - a real world person reading the rules - would expect to be the case upon learning about "ancient archaeo-tech systems" all over the ship. Context.

Cifer said:

We're talking about combining basic and straightforward rules from the same supplement. It is a very predictable combination. Not exactly Pun-Pun, in obscurity or power.

Cifer said:

It doesn't have to "wholly consist of archeotech" to have more than one working archeotech component.

As for how the AdMech treats you if you do select lots of archeotech, I think you're being a bit too harsh. Clearly the RT dynasty is capable of holding on to the ship ... as evidenced by their possession of it. But you do make a good point. Even the Reliquary of Mars description mentions that some tech priests will want the ship for themselves, and it makes sense for this to be a greater and greater problem as you cram more functioning archeotech into it.

If I may get back to a certain line I previously said...

Well, technically, I'd use that tiny little Rules Question link down at the bottom of the page because that would be one powerful background.

That's what I did. While I don't have the original question anymore (asking whether the Reliquary was meant to mean 'exactly 1' or 'at least 1', using your 'alcohol at 21' example), it's not terribly relevant since I was kinda misunderstood on the first try - seems to become a tradition here.

Hi [me],

The Reliquary of Mars option's "must" caveat only applies to that particular role. So if you roll a 1 for past histories, you must take 1 piece of Archeotech to fufill those requirements (otherwise it wouldn't be at all interesting to Mars). Now, if you get access to additional Archeotech components through the warrant path, you can take additional Archeotech Components. These may or may not be taken, depending on the entry. For example, the Warrant Path option "Age of Rebirth" says "may," so you can choose to get an additional piece or Archeotech. However, the Thulean Explorator vessel says "must," so you must take a piece or Archeotech.

On the other hand, since ship background packages replace rolls on the Complications and Past Histories tables, you shouldn't have too many problems there. But yes, you can gain access to multiple archeotech components.

Sam Stewart
RPG Designer
Fantasy Flight Games

Hi Sam!
Firstly, thank you for your answer. However, I might have mis-stated the question as this was not quite the answer I was looking for *g*. Let me rephrase that: Can a Rogue Trader buy multiple pieces of Archeotech using only the Reliquary of Mars History and no other backgrounds, warrants or other options?

Thank you,
[me]

Hi [me], nope, just one. It's an "exact amount."

Hope that helps,

Sam

And since I forgot earlier...

I was repeating the question you just quoted me asking you, slightly paraphrased! " sn't it a bit odd that these wonderful systems never ever grant more than a single archeotech benefit compared to regular tech?"

Yeah, I have to admit I kinda overlooked that one... Sorry about that, it was most certainly not intentional.

We're talking about combining basic and straightforward rules from the same supplement. It is a very predictable combination. Not exactly Pun-Pun, in obscurity or power.

As was noted by someone, it's theoretically possible to create a starting character with a rather enormous amount of wounds and TB if you just take the right career and play the mutation roulette right, merely using the corebook of RT. I think it's safe to say that the 40k rpgs allow for a relatively free development (except for that whole career system) and require a certain amount of oversight for silliness.

As for how the AdMech treats you if you do lots of archeotech, I think you're being a bit too harsh. Clearly the RT dynasty is capable of holding on to the ship ... as evidenced by their possession of it. But you do make a good point. Even the Reliquary of Mars description mentions that some tech priests will want the ship for themselves, and it makes sense for this to be a greater and greater problem as you cram more functioning archeotech into it.

I have to admit to a certain allergy against the "My character has it because I spent the points in character generation" after seeing a first level Werewolf (in a WW: the Apocalypse) run around with a Grand Klaive, pretty much the most sacred relic the setting has when his reason for not being challenged for posession of it was "I spent the background points to get it".

See, I had interperated it to mean that they could buy as many archeo tech bits as they liked. (and buy they did!) And even with a Dauntless loaded with archeotech, two wolfpack raider escorts, and help from the IN cruiser, and they still got blown up by the Whisperer. When I let them use the Righteous Path , on top everything else, they survived, though the dauntless blew up again. (That tech use penalty is a beast)

Cifer said:

Good enough for me.

Thanks for posting that Cifer.