Sons of Dorn has 10 Scouts and a Captain holding a fortified position against thousands of cultists and a bunch of noise marines.
Ok...Space Marines are tough
Ehron said:
According to the fluff, Space Marines are that tough. A group of 5 Space Marines will annihilate a complete company of Imperial Guard, Tau or whatever without losing a single man. It's just Games Workshops blame that the rules of the tabletop do not fit to the background. FFG fixed that fault for the roleplaying game.
Do you have any idea how idiotically unbalanced that would make an already unbalanced wargame if GW stuck to their own fluff for space marines, eldar, orks and all the other races for the table top? there needs to be a considerable amount of abstraction for such a wargame to even remotely work for the universe it's set in.
Wilfred Owen said:
Ehron said:
It's just Games Workshops blame that the rules of the tabletop do not fit to the background. FFG fixed that fault for the roleplaying game.
I'm curious, what part of the background suggests that Space Marines are as powerful as you suggest?
The 13th company of the Space Wolves has been in the EYE OF TERROR for roughly 10,000 years. Now I understand time can flow differently in the warp but I beleive that lives up to them being that powerful.
797.M41 at the siege of Zalathras Marneus Calgar held the gate against the greenskin horde for over a day. Now he is the chapter master but still...
Darnath Lysander escaped from an Iron Warriors stronghold on Malodrax.
These are only a few examples but I feel that is some of the background that suggests Space Marines ARE that powerful.
Brellak said:
Wilfred Owen said:
Ehron said:
It's just Games Workshops blame that the rules of the tabletop do not fit to the background. FFG fixed that fault for the roleplaying game.
I'm curious, what part of the background suggests that Space Marines are as powerful as you suggest?
The 13th company of the Space Wolves has been in the EYE OF TERROR for roughly 10,000 years. Now I understand time can flow differently in the warp but I beleive that lives up to them being that powerful.
797.M41 at the siege of Zalathras Marneus Calgar held the gate against the greenskin horde for over a day. Now he is the chapter master but still...
Darnath Lysander escaped from an Iron Warriors stronghold on Malodrax.
These are only a few examples but I feel that is some of the background that suggests Space Marines ARE that powerful.
And thats just a few and the tau are a far more advanced enemy with wargear and tactics that would make them the equal of any space marine task force for that matter. Crisis batle suits, vespid stingwings, pulse weapons that can hurt a space marine. Hordes do not do the tau justice. A beginning kill team would be hard pressed against a full squad of fire warriors because there pulse weapons are really good, and against a crisis suit team there is a large chance the kill team would be wiped.
And against chaos there really isnt a marine alive that could stand against them chaos marines have all there strengths and 10-20 thousand years of XP under there belts really most space marines are like children compared to them except the power of plot.
Ehron said:
According to the fluff, Space Marines are that tough. A group of 5 Space Marines will annihilate a complete company of Imperial Guard, Tau or whatever without losing a single man. It's just Games Workshops blame that the rules of the tabletop do not fit to the background. FFG fixed that fault for the roleplaying game.
Actually I blame Black Library for putting stupid ideas of "fluff" to childrens brains... Table-top game without ubergodmarines was first. Everything else after that (BL novels, Forgeworld Imperial Armoury books, FFG games...) is just an "expansion" of the original fluff. Besides, protagonists in novels and games are always exceptional people in exceptional circumstances. Comparing them to an "average" marine is like comparing Rambo-movie to real soldiers.
King Arthur was baddass . . . all knights should share his power?
Members of the Tuskegee Airmen squadron (black WWII fighter pilots) were badass . . . they are invulnerable in an RPG?
darkrose50 said:
King Arthur was baddass . . . all knights should share his power?
Members of the Tuskegee Airmen squadron (black WWII fighter pilots) were badass . . . they are invulnerable in an RPG?
The matter of fact is that according to the official Deathwatch rulebook Deathwatch Space Marines (and Marines themselves) are quite awesome. With the DW RPG you get to play Marines who are much closer than novel marines than tabletop marines (not to mention Rogue Trader-era pre-Toughness-boost SMs), at least if you follow their official interpretation.
Alex
I have played in two sessions, was hit three times, twice I soaked all damage, and once I was wounded for 6-points. Thus far I think I am sufficiently badass.
I just got my book on Friday, and had a LARP on Saturday. So I still have a lot of rules examination to do.
My main reason for considering Space Marines to be closer to their novel stats rather than TT stats is simple: It makes sense from a cost/gain point of view. Space Marines are pretty expensive. They use weapons that have a horrible upkeep, they use armour a lot more advanced than that worn by IG generals when those take to the field. They themselves are the product of lots of genetic tampering and chirurgic procedures that have a certain chance of outright killing the recruit. If a Space Marine who essentially costs the Imperium as much as a few hundred guardsmen isn't as valuable as a few hundred guardsmen, there's not much point in having them.
@souljawebb
My Friend those characters all have the power of plot behind them, for every example you just stated there are even more redicules ones ie Commisar Guant dueling a chaos marine with nothing but a power sword and winning, Imperial guardsmen SGT Mkoll killing a chaos dreadnaught and the list goes on and on.
Yeah, there was a reason why that book was the First and Only of the ghosts series I picked up...
And against chaos there really isnt a marine alive that could stand against them chaos marines have all there strengths and 10-20 thousand years of XP under there belts really most space marines are like children compared to them except the power of plot.
Er... you mean, there are a few Chaos Marines who have that stuff - the traitor legions aren't all that old. They too recruit new guys. Also, not all of them have lived for all that time. The warp is funny that way.
And finally, not all of their little gifts have really made them better...
Cifer said:
My main reason for considering Space Marines to be closer to their novel stats rather than TT stats is simple: It makes sense from a cost/gain point of view. Space Marines are pretty expensive. They use weapons that have a horrible upkeep, they use armour a lot more advanced than that worn by IG generals when those take to the field. They themselves are the product of lots of genetic tampering and chirurgic procedures that have a certain chance of outright killing the recruit. If a Space Marine who essentially costs the Imperium as much as a few hundred guardsmen isn't as valuable as a few hundred guardsmen, there's not much point in having them.
Just consider the ratio between Marines and Guardsmen. In order for Marines to have any effect in the defense of the Imperium they must be that awesome.
There is no other way.
And Marines are not as awesome in the tabletop because otherwise an Ork player would have to buy 500 Ork minis to fight against 5 marines.
Alex
Tarkand said:
Sons of Dorn has 10 Scouts and a Captain holding a fortified position against thousands of cultists and a bunch of noise marines.
That's a fortified position, though - a force multiplier in its own right - defended by Marines, even inexperienced, incomplete ones, whose particular speciality is siege warfare... and they didn't escape unscathed either.
N0-1_H3r3 said:
Tarkand said:
Sons of Dorn has 10 Scouts and a Captain holding a fortified position against thousands of cultists and a bunch of noise marines.
That's a fortified position, though - a force multiplier in its own right - defended by Marines, even inexperienced, incomplete ones, whose particular speciality is siege warfare... and they didn't escape unscathed either.
True, but if 10 Scouts did this, odds are 10 full Battle-Brother would have done the same and not lost so many (The Scouts only lost 50% of their number).
And it was against THOUSANDS of troops and a bunch of elite warriors (Noise Marines).
Extrapolating, I don't really see what is so outraging in saying 5 full battle-brother who are dug in (i.e. a fortified position) can kill a few hundred 'lesser' troop. If anything, it seems like much less of a feat than what the Imperial Fists Scouts did in Sons of Dorn.
souljawebb said:
Brellak said:
Wilfred Owen said:
Ehron said:
It's just Games Workshops blame that the rules of the tabletop do not fit to the background. FFG fixed that fault for the roleplaying game.
I'm curious, what part of the background suggests that Space Marines are as powerful as you suggest?
The 13th company of the Space Wolves has been in the EYE OF TERROR for roughly 10,000 years. Now I understand time can flow differently in the warp but I beleive that lives up to them being that powerful.
797.M41 at the siege of Zalathras Marneus Calgar held the gate against the greenskin horde for over a day. Now he is the chapter master but still...
Darnath Lysander escaped from an Iron Warriors stronghold on Malodrax.
These are only a few examples but I feel that is some of the background that suggests Space Marines ARE that powerful.
My Friend those characters all have the power of plot behind them, for every example you just stated there are even more redicules ones ie Commisar Guant dueling a chaos marine with nothing but a power sword and winning, Imperial guardsmen SGT Mkoll killing a chaos dreadnaught and the list goes on and on.
And thats just a few and the tau are a far more advanced enemy with wargear and tactics that would make them the equal of any space marine task force for that matter. Crisis batle suits, vespid stingwings, pulse weapons that can hurt a space marine. Hordes do not do the tau justice. A beginning kill team would be hard pressed against a full squad of fire warriors because there pulse weapons are really good, and against a crisis suit team there is a large chance the kill team would be wiped.
And against chaos there really isnt a marine alive that could stand against them chaos marines have all there strengths and 10-20 thousand years of XP under there belts really most space marines are like children compared to them except the power of plot.
I understand your point completely. Those examples I mentioned are 1 in 1,000. But the point of this RPG isn't to be playing as one of those 999 marines. For EVERY army and race there are those exceptional heroes that all the stories are written about. And if every army didn't have those stories of glory who would want to play as them?
However, chaos space marines vs space marines I must disagree on you with. A whole lot of CSM currently running around were not alive during the Great Crusade. Yes all of the traitor legions are still wreaking havok on the galaxy, but they pull new marines out of everything from slaves taken from the planets they pillage to space marine chapters that have recently fallen.
Cifer said:
My Friend those characters all have the power of plot behind them, for every example you just stated there are even more redicules ones ie Commisar Guant dueling a chaos marine with nothing but a power sword and winning, Imperial guardsmen SGT Mkoll killing a chaos dreadnaught and the list goes on and on.
Yeah, there was a reason why that book was the First and Only of the ghosts series I picked up...
thats a shame the series has been really good.
and overall I quite support Gaunt being able to take down a chaos space marine, its freakin Gaunt he's as hardcore as Yarrik. the novels or the game wouldn't be much fun if herioc victories were removed for the point of game balance.
hell I got a space marine kill with my tech priest at about rank 3-4
bear in mind we did an actual building on the traitor first.
Brellak said:
souljawebb said:
Brellak said:
Wilfred Owen said:
Ehron said:
It's just Games Workshops blame that the rules of the tabletop do not fit to the background. FFG fixed that fault for the roleplaying game.
I'm curious, what part of the background suggests that Space Marines are as powerful as you suggest?
The 13th company of the Space Wolves has been in the EYE OF TERROR for roughly 10,000 years. Now I understand time can flow differently in the warp but I beleive that lives up to them being that powerful.
797.M41 at the siege of Zalathras Marneus Calgar held the gate against the greenskin horde for over a day. Now he is the chapter master but still...
Darnath Lysander escaped from an Iron Warriors stronghold on Malodrax.
These are only a few examples but I feel that is some of the background that suggests Space Marines ARE that powerful.
My Friend those characters all have the power of plot behind them, for every example you just stated there are even more redicules ones ie Commisar Guant dueling a chaos marine with nothing but a power sword and winning, Imperial guardsmen SGT Mkoll killing a chaos dreadnaught and the list goes on and on.
And thats just a few and the tau are a far more advanced enemy with wargear and tactics that would make them the equal of any space marine task force for that matter. Crisis batle suits, vespid stingwings, pulse weapons that can hurt a space marine. Hordes do not do the tau justice. A beginning kill team would be hard pressed against a full squad of fire warriors because there pulse weapons are really good, and against a crisis suit team there is a large chance the kill team would be wiped.
And against chaos there really isnt a marine alive that could stand against them chaos marines have all there strengths and 10-20 thousand years of XP under there belts really most space marines are like children compared to them except the power of plot.
I understand your point completely. Those examples I mentioned are 1 in 1,000. But the point of this RPG isn't to be playing as one of those 999 marines. For EVERY army and race there are those exceptional heroes that all the stories are written about. And if every army didn't have those stories of glory who would want to play as them?
However, chaos space marines vs space marines I must disagree on you with. A whole lot of CSM currently running around were not alive during the Great Crusade. Yes all of the traitor legions are still wreaking havok on the galaxy, but they pull new marines out of everything from slaves taken from the planets they pillage to space marine chapters that have recently fallen.
I can agree with you there however I dont think the traitor legions pull as many new marines as you think just because a marine goes renegade doesntt make him chaos.
You are right the game is about those exceptional marines so I can agree with you there, my point was that the average chaos marine should be able to beat the average loyal marine on a given day with the exception of the few times the loyalist would get lucky but I think the number of heresy era marines running around is far greater than the number of loyal marines, from the dark angels alone you have almost half a legion running around of heresy era chaos marines.
Tarkand said:
And it was against THOUSANDS of troops and a bunch of elite warriors (Noise Marines).
So Imperial Fist scouts are harder than Chaos Spaces marines?
Or was that perhaps that was a situation entirely made for a book to make them look good?
souljawebb said:
I can agree with you there however I dont think the traitor legions pull as many new marines as you think just because a marine goes renegade doesntt make him chaos.
You are right the game is about those exceptional marines so I can agree with you there, my point was that the average chaos marine should be able to beat the average loyal marine on a given day with the exception of the few times the loyalist would get lucky but I think the number of heresy era marines running around is far greater than the number of loyal marines, from the dark angels alone you have almost half a legion running around of heresy era chaos marines.
Oh of course not all renegade marines are chaos marines. The Soul Drinkers are one of my favorite chapters out of loyalist, renegade, and chaos.
You also have to take into consideration that in all of the "traitor legions" not every legionairre turned to chaos. Many actually did stay loyal to the Emperor and this cut down the legion numbers. The amount of marines is also never clearly defined per legion. They could be chapter strength or many times chapter strength. It's all dependent upon the individual legion or chapter in question.
Neodreamweaver said:
thats a shame the series has been really good.
and overall I quite support Gaunt being able to take down a chaos space marine, its freakin Gaunt he's as hardcore as Yarrik. the novels or the game wouldn't be much fun if herioc victories were removed for the point of game balance.
hell I got a space marine kill with my tech priest at about rank 3-4
bear in mind we did an actual building on the traitor first.
Cipher may not be the most un-biased person to review Gaunts Ghosts. We all know Commisars are teh awesomes and the TT stats back that up, but of course if you refuse to read anything that doesn't show a SM as invulnerable gods (despite the fact that power swords are supposed to be able to kill Space Marines) they obviously you are going to be a bit scewed.
Cifer said:
@souljawebb
My Friend those characters all have the power of plot behind them, for every example you just stated there are even more redicules ones ie Commisar Guant dueling a chaos marine with nothing but a power sword and winning, Imperial guardsmen SGT Mkoll killing a chaos dreadnaught and the list goes on and on.
Yeah, there was a reason why that book was the First and Only of the ghosts series I picked up...
To be fair Mkoll's Dreadnaught was already damaged and he used grenades or a demo charge. I forget which. As the emperor's gift to scouts he deadly silent. So he exploded the blind dreadnaught. If he walked up to a fully functional dreadnaught in the open it would have wasted him. Mkoll is badass though. He is also like Yarrik. He's too cool to die.