First of all, I would like to thank the good people at FFG for creating such a wonderful game. I must say that this was an excellent way to bring the feel of Space Marines to an RPG setting and which captures the feel and epic power of the Astartes according to the books in the black library. The artwork is elegant and the story is great. Good job and keep up the good work.

One thing that struck me was how utterly powerful Space Marines could be under the right circumstances, and how it was possible in the game to see how a small group of Marines could turn the tide of a war.

Seeing the expaned rules for hordes, I could appreciate the way that they could simulate a conflict against a great mass of enemies. 30 horde points being a mob, 60 being a "thronged phalanx", 90 being an assault force, and 120 points being a "serrated horde". Now I had to think about the last one for a second, a "serrated horde" conjures up an image of a swarm so large that you see waves in it similar to sand dunes in the wind. I could only think that that would be for tyrranid (or maybe ork) enemies as the Tau probably don't have the numbers (and probably top out at assault force).

Now, seeing that there are squad endevours that would help defend a Space Marine squad such as "Dig In" which allow a squad to buckle down behind sandbags and better protect them against shots from the horde (I reckon that a sandbag would have armor of 8, doubled to 16 due to DIG IN, which is added to the already considerable armor and toughness of the Space Marine on the protected areas).

In terms of Damage, the Space Marines cannot miss a horde of that size and probably would score about 4 to 5 hits EACH with their bolters going full automatic. Each one would cause a hit since I cannot see how the power of a bolter can possibly fail to damage a hormagaunt or fire warrior. With a squad of 6 marines, I reckon that would be 30 to 33 hits a round against the horde assuming one of them has a heavy bolter.

That would mean it would only take a few turns to demolish even an assault force or a "serrated horde". Being in cover, they might suffer a few hits but the cover could even negate that damage. I could not help but notice that even with horde bonuses, Space marines can still survive many hits.

So a half dozen Marines can destroy an assault force in a number of turns and only suffer a few wounds, but the loss to the Tau for having lost an "assault force" would be devistating to their war effort. How is that for a game changer.

According to the fluff, Space Marines are that tough. A group of 5 Space Marines will annihilate a complete company of Imperial Guard, Tau or whatever without losing a single man. It's just Games Workshops blame that the rules of the tabletop do not fit to the background. FFG fixed that fault for the roleplaying game.

Ehron said:

Lol, I don't think so. A company?! Rogal Dorn himself is quoted as saying 'give me a one hundred space marines or failing that one thousand other troops." At what end of the company scale are you counting? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_%28military_unit%29

200 guardsmen will be carrying 20 heavy weapons and 20 special weapons, with attendent 160 lasguns. I'd love to see how 5 marines can survive 20 lascannons and 20 plasma guns... 5 space marines would not survive that, no matter how uber they're supposed to be. If you wish to argue that they could 'stealth' kill them or some other form of indirect attack, that's fine. However the same could be said of almost anything if we get to start designing the encounters they have. ie I could argue that a grot could kill a billion guardsmen because he pressed the button that starts exterminatus...

They're still made of human meat. That still burns at the same temperature any other human burns at. A plasmagun to the face will boil a marine's head off his shoulders, just as it would a normal human.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

However 200 guardsmen only armed with lasguns should be do-able. And if they can take out the heavy weapons quickly... ouch.

Alex

Ehron said:

Santiago said:

That's it.

consider though, that the fire warriors at least have a longer range than the marines, and will usually hit on full auto with a +10 modifier (45) assuming long range. they will then be getting 13 (12 + fire drill) shots, anything up to 52 hits, each doing 4d10+2 pen 4 damage (average 22+4). so most of the time they wouldnt be able to scratch the marines, but with the sheer weight of firepower, a lucky hit to a marine's head, or just a massive damage roll and the marines will really feel it.

as for hormagaunts, with a run speed of 60 they will close the gap FAST. disconnect them from a synapse creature and they get frenzy, (WS 55, S 45, T 40) and fearless. when in combat, thats 4d10+6 pen 3 (inc. bonuses), and 2 attacks per marine, which cannot be dodged, and cover bonuses are unlikely to apply. give em toxic as well to make things interesting

if i were a GM running the tau side of things and i saw the marines dig in - id back off out of bolter range and wait for them. the tau arent idiotic enough to do a zulu against dug in marines, if i were the nids, i wouldnt worry and just charge in. theyre only gaunts. either way, 120+ size hordes can indeed be very scary, especially when supported by weapons capable of smashing cover.

skatingtortoise said:

Which Rank and which equipment to the marines have? Terminators with Assault Cannons? Or just two Heavy Bolter Devastators among them? Metal Storm munition? The truth is its all hypothetical.

And the truth is that part of the reason for this role-playing game is just to find out who would win in a given set-up - by playing it out.

Alex

I assume a plain vanilla force of about 6 marines. Assume the pregenerated characters from Final Sanction plus the two extras given by FFG. The assumptive is that one of them, probably the Apothecary, took the Path of Knowledge for Tau or Tyrannid and got everyone digging a hasty trench minutes before a massive assault. I imagine the Marines behind cover, holding up their bolters with a massive "CHUG CHUG CHUG CHUG" being heard as the bolt rounds bark loudly, systematically shredding the advancing force.

The key to remember is that the Marines are in cover, kinda like in a foxhole or World War 1 trench. Even if the enemy has heavy weapons hitting the marines is going to be tricky. Plus, for a Tau assault there is a chance that the group might panic if enough of their men are slaughtered quickly.

skatingtortoise said:

Your math is off ... assuming they are doing 4d10+2 (pen 4) hit - average rolls => 24 (pen 4). Against pen 4 starting marines have a soak of 12. So one average hit is going to hurt a lot (12 points of damage), two hit are going to be bad news and more than that are very bad news for a marine .

PlasmaBomb said:

Remember unnatural toughness. The soak is actually closer to 16, meaning that the average residual damage is closer to 8. Most Marines could survive about 2 to 3 hits.

peterstepon said:

Your math is also off... I did remember unnatural toughness... I specifically stated against Pen 4 their soak was 12... so lets work it out.

Average starting marine toughness ~41 = TB 4 - unnatural toughness x2 = TB 8, + 8 soak for AV 8 = 16 soak, - 4 for Pen 4 = 12 soak.

24 damage - 8 TB -4 AV = 12 hits.

Average wounds is ~21. Two hits (for 12 damage) = bad news (3 crit).

PlasmaBomb said:

There's an 80% chance a successful attack will not hit the exposed head or right arm of a marine. So a marine should not face the thread of beign hit more than once per round. Against ranged horde attacks I believe a dodge is possible. If the dodge fails, karma can be expended.

And I haven't even looked into defensive squad mode abilities or 500xp cost (for rank 1 chars) librarian powers yet.

Alex

You're both forgetting that the discussion was for dug in marines. Add some cover to that, and everything's peachy.

ak-73 said:

I don't have the book for the "fun" stuff, I was merely pointing out how 4d10+2 pen 4 != no threat to a marine (nor did it equal 22 damage on an average roll).

Not having the rules means I don't know if hordes of FW can put of 52 hits...

I suppose that I should also point out in the OP it is impossible for an average marine to score 5 hits with a bolter... since they are S/2/4 aren't they?

I ran the GM kit adventure for some friends last night and it turned out that hordes aren't the major problem. The real killers are smaller units of elite troops that are fought a la Dark Heresy. The killteam waded through several Kroot hordes with very little trouble. The unit that did the most damage was the Stealth suit team. 5 Tau with burst cannons and decent armour killed one marine and badly injured a second before they were finally taken down.

PlasmaBomb said:

There's an ability with which some can make an additional hit (one of my main points of criticism is the at times too gamey mechanics).

As for Hordes, sure they can put out 52 hits. If you battle a horde with magnitude 520. Standard hordes in Final Sanction had magnitude 30 or so.

Alex

All Bolt weapons using standard ammo do type X damage, which does one additional Hit against Hordes.

peterstepon said:

The only Tau forces that I would use horde rules for are Kroot. Everything else deserves individuation if you ask me. Tau weaponry is just too freakin' powerful to not give each gun it's due individually. Then again I haven't read the book yet so maybe I would change my mind then.

Larin said:

And it all mounts up - a Tactical Marine with Bolter Drill and Storm of Iron, using a Stormbolter loaded with Metal Storm shells inflicts 12 magnitude with a successful Ballistic Skill Test, plus an additional 12 for every degree of success, to a maximum of 60 (2 basic per hit, because it's Blast 2, +1 for Explosive damage, doubled for Storm of Iron; each hit is then doubled due to Storm, and it can hit a maximum of 5 times, doubled to 10 due Storm because of Bolter Drill).

If nothing else, that particular combination obliterates Hordes.

The Explosive damage entry says "Weapons that inflict Explosive Damage (X) gain a bonus against hordes and count as having inflicted one additional hit". The most logical explanation would be to assume that it's one hit per "bullet", but it could as well be one hit per attack... I guess that's one for the errata.

Apart from that, I'd like to say a hearty OUCH! after reading those numbers...

Atheosis said:

Actually Tau are more dangerous as individuals than hordes. A horde gets 1 shot for every 10 magnitude so a mag 30 Tau horde gets 3 shots with their pulse rifles. the eqivalent force as individuals gets 30 shots. Bottom line, the horde rules make shooting much less scary and melee much MUCH more scary. Even a small horde of firewarriors can take a space marine apart up close and personal.

Wargamer said:

Remember magnitude is not 1:1 to actual warm bodies present.

Ehron said:

I'm curious, what part of the background suggests that Space Marines are as powerful as you suggest?

Ehron said:

Huh? I don't think I've ever seen anything to indicate they are that bad-ass. Even those sources that are way over the top never go to that extreme.