Am I missing something, or is this talent a bit underpowered for how late you get it?

Errant said:

Never seemed that way to me; a Rank 8 Ork Freebooter will hit extremely hard on the charge (Furious Charge, Brutal Charge, Mighty Blow, Frenzy, and Unnatural Strength all add up... a Rank 8 Ork with average WS and S to start, plus four advances in each, a Power Klaw, and those talents and traits hits 86% of the time when charging, dealing 2d10+26 E, Pen 10, Tearing damage... add WAAAGH! to that, and he does it twice, in exchange for losing his reaction, which he can't use for defence anyway because he's frenzied), and being able to make multiple attacks on the charge is a rare and quite useful ability.

Admittedly, there won't be too many turns when he can't use it - I don't see that many enemies remain standing in melee with him after he drops that little bomb. Oh, and N0-1, you forgot More fer Me! if the Ork manages to charge into melee with multiple combatants. Hello 96% chance to hit!

Cifer said:

Even if there are still enemies in melee with him, he's already got Furious Assault, so he can do almost the same thing with All-Out Attacks instead of Charge Attacks. It keeps a frenzied Ork on a consistent 2 attacks per round...

Cifer said:

I didn't forget it - I just chose not to include it at this point.

On a similar note, if you have access to Deathwatch as well, there's a new use of the Intimidate skill which is quite appropriate for Orks, particularly those with WAAAGH!, which imposes a penalty to dodge and parry on enemies charged if the character passes an Intimidate test.

Since we're on the subject, does Furious Assault become obsolete once the ork get Swift/Lightning attack or Two Weapon Wielder (Melee)? Basically, can you combine All Out Attack with Multiple Attacks and/or Two Weapon Fighting?

Radomo said:

No, you can't - making a multiple attack action (using Swift Attack/Lightning Attack and/or Two Weapon Fighting) is a distinct full-round action from All-Out Attack.

Yeah, that was my reading as well. It just seems odd that it is so, since TT is so melee focused and melee could use the boost vs Full Auto in DH/RT. Your comment on Frenzy made me realize that a Frenzied character can't use two weapons. That seems very odd to me.

For my reference, the various modes an Ork (or really any character) can attack in are:

Standard Attack - 1 attack, +0 WS, Reaction available

All out Attack - 2 attack +20 WS, no Reaction

Frenzied All Out attack - 2 attacks, +10 WS, +10 Str, no Reaction

Charge: 1 attack, +10 (or +20 w/ Berserk Charge) WS, Reaction Available (+3 Dmg w/ Brutal Charge)

WAAAGH Charge - 2 attacks, +20 WS, no Reaction (+3 Dmg w/ Brutal Charge)

Multiple attacks:

Swift/Lightning Attack - 2/3 attacks, +0 WS, Reaction Available

Two Weapon - +1 attack, -10 WS (assuming ambidextrous), Reaction Available

So Swift attack vs Furious assault is a chance to dodge/parry vs +20 WS. Adding an off hand weapon makes it 1 further attack & chance to parry vs +30 WS. Barring characters with very high WS and BC weapons, the multiple attacks seem like a very poor choice. The image of an ork or Khorne Berzerker frenzying with two weapons seems two iconic to be excluded from the rules, imo.

Even if you could combine all the actions and talents, a character that has spent 6 talents and gives up his Reaction would get 4 attacks +1 off hand at +0 WS for an All out, Frenzied, Multiple attack. vs a Frenzied multiple attack of 3 attacks, 1 offhand -20 WS, and ability to parry. The +20 from All out attack is hugely valuable, since, unlike Ranged attacks, getting +WS bonuses in melee is rare and using TWW and/or Frenzy gives you a penalty.

Put another way, assuming base WS 60, it's two attacks Frenzied at WS 70 w/ AOA vs 4 attacks at WS 40 w/ LA + TWW. Combining the two would give 5 attacks at WS 60, so maybe you could discount the other attack, leaving 4 attacks at WS 60, no parry/dodge.

I'd generally consider the frenzy/all-out branch about equivalent in value to multiple attacks. The latter has more attacks and more parries, the former higher attack bonuses (+30) and what is perhaps most important makes you immune to fear several ranks before any career gets access to Fearless and/or the AdMech Rite.

It just seems odd that it is so, since TT is so melee focused and melee could use the boost vs Full Auto in DH/RT.

Considering a high-ranking Ork, enemies with Full Auto weapons are pretty much the best that can happen to him. 10 to 12 points of TB, around 10 points of armour (importing a Mega Armour from Creatures Anathema) and the only thing most automatic weapons will do is scratch the red paint.

You know, I was looking at the DH version of Frenzy, which decreases WS and doesn't give immunity to Fear/Pinning. That does make it better. Rather than the -20 for Two weapon fighting + Frenzy, it's +0, which is fine. Still stinks in DH, but that's a different forum.

You might want to take a look at DH's errata - not even there it's still ruled that way.