Overseer Lazarus said:

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

You can agree or disagree with me that the Thrower archetype is too good or easily beatable or whatever, but at the end of the day my point is that it is bad for the game because the matches are just not fun at all. The GenCon players said the same thing to a man. Having a tier 1 archetype that makes for horribly boring games is not a way to grow your playerbase. It is not unbeatable (for the zillionth time) - you can hate the deck out for sure, although it's hard - but that doesn't matter.

I appreciate that FFG is using a laissez-faire approach on this - the time-honoured "just wait and it will get better", but it is not working. Make some strategic bans, you can always reverse them later if you want. I think the ban list I suggested (Mining Tunnels, Repeater Bolt Thrower, Reclaiming the Fallen) would open up the meta nicely and we'd probably see viable decks out of non-Dwarf capitals again (especially Orc).

For the people in the thread who seem confused about how Outpost of Tiranoc with the Thrower, it doesn't add damage if you deal 0 (since dealing 0 doesn't count as dealing damage). That is not the issue here.

The title of the thread is admittedly inflammatory - but honestly I don't think most players say it, they just stop playing (did we hear this from the 7 players in Lazarus's league? no, they just quit playing).

Instead of stopping playing, why don't the players stop using the thrower decks? Ahh I forgot the goal is to win not to have fun... The biggest problem I see with dwarfs is their huge advantage at the beginning of the game. I don't see it as broken but as a bit unbalanced. Wait for the next chapter packs everything will (hopefully) balance out. This is the big disadvantage of LCGs, the balance comes over time.

Thanks for your condescending, arrogant, rude attitude aimed at the way we ("comeptitive" players) play games. It goes a long way toward productive discussion when you dismiss people who disagree with you as "doing it wrong."

Don't be a jerk.

In the interest of actual communication, please consider that we approach games like W:I as puzzles to solve. Each new format has a single "right" answer - which deck is best given the expected composition of the field, and likewise, each game state has one optimal line of play. We play these games to find and make those optimal choices. I completely respect your right to approach the game in a casual manner that is more concerned with the experience of playing than solving the puzzle, but I also think the competitive approach is legitimate and worthy of respect.

The purpose of this post & posts like it is to communicate that some of the competitive players feel this game's design is ruining the experience of solving the puzzle by making it obvious and, even worse, boring and inhibiting to new ideas. If FFG doesn't care, fine. We'll play something else. But it should still be said, and its still a valid point regardless of whether it affects you and your personal casual philosophy.

Eh. All Mining Tunnels needs is an addendum which removes the cumulative effect. Drawing up to three cards for developing a zone is abusive. Highlander format only.

Bolt Thrower is just.... bad design. When a faction only has one card that is worth playing at the time of its release... just saying
That said, the effect cost needs to be doubled to make it fair.

I don't know anything about Reclaiming the Fallen...and then I checked deckbox. Maybe the designers thought it'd be a great way to beef up the grudge bearers and in their excitement forgot the grudge thrower exists. Other than making it a cost 10 epic with 5 loyalty, I don't know if this one could be fixed, unless it was only playable on an opponent's turn(without the increased cost).

Finally, you can't leave Clam man! Who's gonna critique my decks?

As I've said before, I think errata that significantly functionally changes a card so it doesn't work how a new player expects is a bad idea. Restricting or banning cards is a much better solution.

If I start playing constructed again, I doubt it will be without a major change to the game like adding a banlist unless magical game-fixing fairies arrive in the next BPs, which seems very, very unlikely.

As for all of the people saying in various (and sometimes insulting) ways "just use houserules, why do you care about winning anyway" - well, actually, I don't really care about winning. I care about solving the puzzle of what are the best decks in the game. If the process of solving is no fun then I am going to point out ways I think it could be better. If your group is playing Chess, it's all very well to say "that's it, I've had it with the jumping crap, Knights are banned" - but now you can't really meaningfully talk to other players outside your group about strategy.

I should also note for the benefit of the people who think that I am wrong and that everything is fine that Lazarus's anecdote is at least a bit of evidence that I am onto something. However, I realise that the plural of anecdote is not data.

I must admit I am interested in seeing if any other players (and TOs) would be up for exploring a competitive format without the 3 cards on my list (Reclaiming the Fallen, Mining Tunnels and Repeater Bolt Thrower).

Well, Bolt Thrower got errata'd so it won't be a significant threat any more (although I guess the HE aggro indirect deck could still theoretically play it, but now the dragon is probably a better option).

Is there a way to beat Dwarves now? Maybe. Unit hate just became slightly more viable although beating Reclaim the Fallen is really the challenge for that plan.

Glad for the errata. Nice to see BT decks taken down a notch.

Reclaiming the Fallen and Mining Tunnels may be too strong. I had previously said that I thought that Mining Tunnels is probably the single best card in the game and I still think that is likely true. I'm uncertain that either of these needs to be outright banned (its possible), unlike Bolt Thrower they don't create quite the same kind of negative play experience. Really either of these would probably be ok if they were more costly. Hopefully Destruction will get some better two cost support cards outside of dark elf. Something other than grimgor or verena that can kill multiple support cards might help as well. I get the sense that in general destruction will have more cost effective units, while order will have more cost effective supports. Right now the destruction units are still slightly better than the order units, but not by much. Order supports are currently much stronger than what destruction has to offer (especially chaos). Also there is a vast amount of unit removal and very little support destruction thus its easier to negate an advantage in the unit department.

Honestly I'm more worried about Reclaiming the Fallen constricting deck building than Mining Tunnels right now. Mining Tunnels can go into a lot of different types of decks while Reclaiming the Fallen doesnt fit into as many (more than thrower did though). Reclaiming the Fallen gives order a big advantage over destruction right now. Its effect goes a long way to negate a unit removal based strategy but this is not the only advantage it gives order. Its effect also makes playing a milling strategy riskier which is an area that destruction had an advantage right now. Additionally, order decks have a few answers to this card like High Elves Disdain, Gifts, Master Rune of Valaya and master rune of spite. Destruction decks dont really have a good answer of their own. Maybe Ripping a Blood Thirster, Nurgle's Pestilence, or perhaps Take Captive could stop it.

I'm personally much happy with the state of Invasion after this latest FAQ. With the elimination of Repeater as a really viable deck archtype I think we're slightly better off than when Skaven were the dominant deck type and order struggled to compete. Order is certainly still stronger than Destruction right now but might catch up if the next couple of battle packs go their way.

Sorry, just realized this was kind of a ramble.

Don't apologize at all. I know plenty of people here will find your comments super informative and/or useful. When a large tournament winner speaks, it's not a bad idea to hear his thoughts.

Vitamin T: I think you and I are on the same page. I definitely agree that the game is in a better place after de facto removal of the Thrower.

I think that Mining Tunnels may turn out to be too good in the longer term (kind of like WE) but right now it's not such a metagame constriction as Reclaiming the Fallen - that seems like the bigger problem in the short term in terms of metagame diversity. Having said that, starts with double Mining Tunnels on turns 1-2 are nearly unbeatable with good play on both sides, much like WE.

I think I've played a lot more games than the average here, but I don't claim to be some kind of metagame genius or game designer. I'm married to a designer so I know what it takes, I don't claim to be one.

The issue with your Order vs. Destro point there is that if Order gets more effective supports but Destro gets better units, right now Order wins by default since there is mass unit removal but the only mass support removal is hard to use (Grimgor, Smash 'em All).

I agree with Wytefang that your comments are most welcome and constructive. Variants on your decklist were our Dwarf test list up to this point. Obviously right now you play more Reclaiming the Fallen and less whatever is relevant to the meta (Burn It Down being the prime candidate), but right now there is a fair amount of room for maneuver in Dwarf capital lists.

You guys think that MT and RTF are still to much strong. where is the problem?

make thousands of post in which you whine and cry (like you are used to) and make FFG ban them also. Gratz american guys, you made it!

Definitely, today we had the final proof that your gaming phylosophy is: IF YOU CAN'T BEAT THEM, CRY AND BAN THEM!

Kragg said:

THEY WILL BURN, JUST LIKE THEY WANTED TO!

Mining? Fallen?

Sorry, but...What kind of game you want?

"Skaven, orc, attack, resource, orc attack?" Or you prefer "Monster, resource, draw, attack, resource, monster, attac?"

If this was the game, anyone would had played it at all.

A game needs some twists. I'm not a Dwarf player, nor I was a RBT one...But I totally disagree with this "ban" (yeah, it's a ban) and I'd totally disagree with tunnels (or the like) nerfing...

I don't really see, by any mean, how this bad habit can take us far from here...Crusades aren't a good thing.

which cards gonna be target of your next whine kids? recover the fallen? mining tunnels? warpostone excavation? why don't we add also verena? or maybe grimgor?

if this game is to much hard for you, hello kitty online should be your next choice. try not to complain and cry even there.

BigV said:

DB.Cooper said:

Kragg said:

DB.Cooper said:

Cheers guys, maybe if you whine strong enough bolt thrower will get unfaq'ed

But you must hurry, dwarf balancing is inevitable...

yea virgo, looks like this is the new trend: you whine for quite a bit and momFFG listen you.

they are strong, srly.

Clamatius said:

Have you ever heard about some card called "Pillage", "Demolition!" or "Burn it Down!"? They have the incredible effect to destroy a support card! Amazing, didn't they?

BigV said:

Yeah, demolitioning enemy's warpstone excavation on first turn paying 2 to destroy 0 cost support. Brilliant. I'm not even mentiong the fact that pillage has 2 loyalty symbols and uses your all resources on turn one. And that Burn it Down requires developments in battlefield...

BigV said:

WAT?! YOU KIDDIN' ME?! a tattic who got the INCREDIBLE AND L33T POWER TO PWN A SUPPORT?! they must be nerfed, limit once per game.

@virgo trust me dude, there are thousands of way to use pillage at turn 1 or to destroy warpstone excavation. I'm amazed to hear that from a guy who post on this forum, I thought you guys were stronger, srly.

Virgo said:

OMG support cards are unstoppable! PLEASE FFG BAN ALL SUPPORT CARDS FROM THE GAME!!

Srsly guys, trolling your nerdrage is such a great fun that I'm gonna do in every possible thread

this ain't trolling.

Virgo said:

A nerd saying "nerd" to another one. Cool, this gives you the medal of Uber Nerd.

NERD SUPER SAYAN RAGE!