Hey guys...I've been intrigued of late with the past history of this game, back to the CCG-version/era....

I found a site showing some pictures and text of various cards (some of them) from those days. Many I would hope they reproduce (like Norman Blackwood Sr. ! - I think it's cool seeing Norman B-Jr's - dad as a playable character - and he's not bad either !).

However...I came across one this morning that seems truly ludicrous. If I understand it's wording correctly, I don't see how it could not be an "instant win" card if you draw it . . .

(wish I knew how to insert Pictures in these messages, by the way - if anyone knows !!!)

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Behind the Pallid Mask (I guess this is supposed to be what happens when you look at the King in Yellow, Hastur - full on in his "face", without mask)

Type: Event

Cost to Play = X

Action: Reveal and discard the top X cards of your deck. For each (Hastur) card you reveal in this way, each opponent must either discard 1 card from his hand (if able) or discard the top 4 cards of his deck.

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Ummm.....if I am understanding this right, it would be an instant win for an all-Hastur deck, assuming you got it in your starting hand or shortly thereafter. Basically....what stops you from playing this on (let's say) - Turn-1....and saying -

"I'll discard 35-cards from my deck, leaving me with about 5 or so left....meanwhile...hey, look - they are ALL Hastur cards ! Cool. Now you, my opponent, must discard your 5-starting hand cards..nice....now that still leaves 30 Hastur Cards which have just been put into my discard pile. Please discard 4-cards from your deck, for each of these 30-cards which you have yet to account for. I'll make it easy for you, that's a total of 120 of your cards you have to put into your discard. Oh...wait...your deck only has 50-60 cards, like most decks ? Oops ! Guess you just got "grindstoned" to death, to reference MTG decks of old !

Game over, I win !"

Am I reading this right ? How could the CCG even be played with such a card in the mix ? I must be misreading it or something....

Whats stops you from doing that on first turn is having 35 cards resourced in a domain.

X being the cost to play that card and is exactly how many card the hastur player discards to force the effect. Its nasty, just not as nasty as you think especially that early in the game.

If you exhaust a domain with 4 resources, then you discard 4 cards from your deck. The opponent then either discards 4 cards from his hand or 16 cards from the top of their deck.

**** ! Quite right ...lol....my brain must be addled (by Hastur himself, no doubt !!) ....and I am rather tired, having just gotten off a 3rd shift overnight at work.

For some reason....in my mind...I was reading X (in this case) as being the number of cards you chose to discard...ie the discard WAS paying the cost. Don't ask me why or how exactly I was thinking that !

Still...all that aside... this still seems like an awesome card....that could make milling through someone's deck happen pretty quickly, and have some devastating effects on their hand (if they don't want to destroy their deck) ....

Do you think they will ever reprint this (or many of the other CCG cards) in upcoming asylum packs ?

I have no idea. Its always an option of course but I personally dont see them doing it right now, especially with how nasty hastur is currently. Give them yet another good way to win cheaply? Yeah....

I could see a form of this for Yog though. Slightly toned down to say perhaps 1 card from hand or 2 cards from the deck. Still nasty but not to the point of using only three copies of this card to mill someone's 50 card deck completely by the 3rd turn.

As it stood, if you had three copies you could do this by the third turn if the Hastur player went first.

1st turn 2 cards drawn (leaves 40 cards in deck) opponent hits you with the first one to remove your hand or mill you for 8.

2nd turn draw 2 cards (leaves 38 or 30 cards in deck depending on the effect chosen) opponent hits you for another one for 12 cards.

3rd turn draw 2 cards (leaves 28 cards in deck or 16 depending on choice of the effect) opponent hits you for another one for 16 cards. By this time if you have any cards left in your hand, you will most assuredly choose to discard them in order to be able to draw cards on the 4th turn.

This is done in a vacuum however and doesn't even take into account other cheap stuff he may be throwing at you like infected by madness, which could very well seal your fate if he also plays a one cost terror causing creature that manages to get through. You better hope you are playing Miskatonic and have a lot of card draw to throw excess cards in hand away to prevent massive milling.

I am hoping my math is flawed here and am missing something that prevents such a lucky draw of pallid masks from functioning so well, but I think overall its possible.

Given the above, I doubt we will see that card in the LCG anytime soon. Or rather, I hope not. I would like to see all CCG cards reprinted but not until the more broken cards have a reasonable answer to them somewhere in the pool before hand.

I think Behind the Pallid Mask would be a smart reprint. Giving the opponent choices is also a card weakness.

In my opinion the cost reduction Ritual Events really triggered the demise of the CCG's playability for anyone not willing to shell out for chase rares. Case in point:

Dream Summoning
- Steadfast 3 -
Cost : 0
Subtype : Ritual.
Game Text: Action: until the end of the phase, lower the cost for you to play [Cthulhu] cards by 1 (to a minimum of 1). Then, you may drain a domain you control to return Dream Summoning to your hand instead of discarding it.
Rare

With the Yog version of this Ritual and Limbo Gate one could reliably play this on turn 1-2:

Cthulhu, Dead but Dreaming
Cost : 10
Skill : 10
Icons : TTCCA
Subtype : Ancient One.
Game Text: Villainous. Invulnerability. Lower the cost to play Cthulhu by 5 if you control 4 or more Cultist characters. Response: after Cthulhu enters play, each player discards his hand.

This is just an example of what sort of madness was going on *cough*Shocking+Ghoul Khanum*cough*cough*...

You know what would be a great list to debate, the power cards that crept away CCG and the four card maximum.

1. The Reducer Rituals, zero cost then back to hand - Saturnalia et al

2. The final straw Yog lock down cards, enshrouded in controversy and complexity.

3. The new wave Ancient Ones - Yig, Y'Go, Ithaqua

4. The Champion cards -Assistant et al

I would definitely say that the amount of resource acceleration and the speed at which you could play certain power cards made something like behind the pallid mask seem bleh, and nowhere near broken. Things like witch tree, the cost reduction rituals, shocking transformation -> ghoul khanum just made some ridiculous combos go off by turn two. I know I'm listing mostly Shubby stuff, but I can't help that it was my main faction at the time.

And as Tokhuah said, turn 2 Ancient Ones did happen.

Well, you guys forget about cards like Rip Off, Court of Ythill, Chaugnar Faugn and Pulp Writer etc.

... and On the Lamb!

Also, even though they eventually received heavy errata, the totally broken Rainbow Characters that showed up in different forms in consecutive sets made one scratch the brain box and wonder if design had been influenced by some sort of Yithian Mental Contact.

On the Lamb is where I like to put my curry.

Does anyone still have their old CCG decks? All of mine were broken apart and put in storage it seems.

I do have Syndicate and Shub decks. Currently selling them piece by piece (already got rid of Hastur and Yogotonic).

What was a Rainbow character and can you give an example of which ones (and how/why) were "broken" - overpowered ?

- Also - since you mention the Champion's Cards.....I have a few specific questions about Descendant of Eibon I thought I'd throw in here, since we are talking about it / them / powerful cards !

1.) - First of all...I was shocked to check the card and discover.....it's NOT a Unique ? - IE - you can have more than one of them in play at a time for your side ? Has this been errated...or am I just missing the "little black dot" next to his name, that signifies "uniqueness" for a card in this game. . . ?

2.) - For some reason...this card strikes me as grossly powerful for what you pay for it...even if you discounted his "special ability / effect" ..... 3-cost (Neutral) - for a 2-Combat, 1-Investigation, 1-Arcane.... AND 3-Skill.

That would be great for 3-Points....on any card, I would think.... but then they throw on Willpower AND Fast on top of that !!! Yet he still costs just 3.

Finally...as if that wasn't enough...they throw on a strong ability (more on that in my next question) which makes him almost unkillable if the opponent is doing anything at all in the game (winning a few success tokens). ALL of that....for 3-Cost. ? ? ?

This has to be the most ridiculous Cost - to - Card Overall Power / Icons / Abilities - card that is currently out, where characters are concerned at least...?

3.) - Lastly....here is the way the special ability for Descendant is worded: Action: Discard 2 of your success tokens to put Descendant of Eibon into play from your hand or into your hand from your discard pile. At the end of the phase, if he is still in play from this effect, return Descendant of Eibon to your hand.

(note that I'm using the Errata for him, which increased the cost to 2-Success Tokens, instead of the 1-printed on the card - which me and my friend had been mistakenly using ...even with this newly realized change...he's still pretty brutal)

Anyways...my question here is....WHEN can you activate this ability ? Pretty much forever...right ? I thought it would be balanced if you only had the turn he went into the discard to be "brought back to your hand" - and after that he was dead for good. But my opponent disagreed, pointing out that there is no "time limit // time frame" listed on the card.

In other words...I ended up killing his Descendant with a Deep One Assault. He went to the discard pile. My opponent only had 2-tokens on one of his stories, and wanted to hold off removing any, so he could take it next turn with some investigation characters (which I could not kill or hold off). So he took that story and about 3-turns later, he had gotten 2-more tokens on another story.

At this point (at the end of my half of the turn), he said...okay, I'll throw off a Success Token (playing by the mistaken on-the-card-printing of 1-token needed)....and pick Descendant back from my discard pile, so I can play him yet again on my turn.

Is that correct ? Is that how he should be played ? - basically he is unkillable (for good) as long as you have success tokens ? (note that it costing 2 now, does change how ludicrous I felt he was playing ....but even with that, he still seems - OVERALL - to be a really strong card, for a really cheap cost...)

Eldrich Rainbow sampler:

Lower the cost to play [Character Name] by 1 for each resource type other than [This Character's Faction] attached to your domains.

Since they cost 4 people could typically start playing them for free within the first two turns.

Masks Rainbow sampler:

Response: (this is not the exact pre-errata wording) After you play a Ritual and return to your hand, put [Card Name] into play from your hand or your discard pile.

You could include x4 of all of these 4 cost Characters from the monster factions without worrying about resource matching as long as you included enough Rituals to trigger them. I saw somone play a ritual, drain a domain to buy it back, and 4 of these Characters then follow up with Calling Down the Ancients on turn 2. As long as you kept a Ritual in your hand they could never be permanently destroyed.

Tokhuah said:

Not really, notice the words "resource TYPE". It means that the cost can go down by 1 for a 2-faction deck, 2 for a 3-faction and so on.

And we still have one such character remaining in the LCG, Thing From the Stars: cthulhu.dbler.com/index.php

Not as powerful as it only counts mismatched resources on the domain drained to pay for it, but still it follows the same mechanic.

I've never dis-assembled my Syndicate deck which, the same day it was created, used 'On the Lam' to defeat the English Yithian Deck. That was a great evening.

Manit0u said:

You can potentially have 4 four resource types on turn 1. The trick was to main deck factions outside of the ones the Rainbow cards belonged to and then fill things in with the other cards.

I<3AlbinoGoatSpawn said:

I regularly played Yig turn 1. It ruined many a Syndicate deck's day.

1.) - First of all...I was shocked to check the card and discover.....it's NOT a Unique ? - IE - you can have more than one of them in play at a time for your side ? Has this been errated...or am I just missing the "little black dot" next to his name, that signifies "uniqueness" for a card in this game. . . ?

FFG has encouraged that in the past. I don't know that it will continue into the future, but I know that several of us tried to push for uniqueness, but it didn't happen.

2.) - For some reason...this card strikes me as grossly powerful for what you pay for it...even if you discounted his "special ability / effect" ..... 3-cost (Neutral) - for a 2-Combat, 1-Investigation, 1-Arcane.... AND 3-Skill.

That would be great for 3-Points....on any card, I would think.... but then they throw on Willpower AND Fast on top of that !!! Yet he still costs just 3.

Finally...as if that wasn't enough...they throw on a strong ability (more on that in my next question) which makes him almost unkillable if the opponent is doing anything at all in the game (winning a few success tokens). ALL of that....for 3-Cost. ? ? ?

This has to be the most ridiculous Cost - to - Card Overall Power / Icons / Abilities - card that is currently out, where characters are concerned at least...?

Well, might I remind you that it was a champion's card. They were designed to be powerful. Most people who played in the CCG era would agree that my card pales in comparison with the Assistant to Dr. West and Mentor to Vaughn.

3.) - Lastly....here is the way the special ability for Descendant is worded: Action: Discard 2 of your success tokens to put Descendant of Eibon into play from your hand or into your hand from your discard pile. At the end of the phase, if he is still in play from this effect, return Descendant of Eibon to your hand.

(note that I'm using the Errata for him, which increased the cost to 2-Success Tokens, instead of the 1-printed on the card - which me and my friend had been mistakenly using ...even with this newly realized change...he's still pretty brutal)

Anyways...my question here is....WHEN can you activate this ability ? Pretty much forever...right ? I thought it would be balanced if you only had the turn he went into the discard to be "brought back to your hand" - and after that he was dead for good. But my opponent disagreed, pointing out that there is no "time limit // time frame" listed on the card.

In other words...I ended up killing his Descendant with a Deep One Assault. He went to the discard pile. My opponent only had 2-tokens on one of his stories, and wanted to hold off removing any, so he could take it next turn with some investigation characters (which I could not kill or hold off). So he took that story and about 3-turns later, he had gotten 2-more tokens on another story.

At this point (at the end of my half of the turn), he said...okay, I'll throw off a Success Token (playing by the mistaken on-the-card-printing of 1-token needed)....and pick Descendant back from my discard pile, so I can play him yet again on my turn.

Is that correct ? Is that how he should be played ? - basically he is unkillable (for good) as long as you have success tokens ? (note that it costing 2 now, does change how ludicrous I felt he was playing ....but even with that, he still seems - OVERALL - to be a really strong card, for a really cheap cost...)

Yep. The design goal of champion's cards was to make people really excited to play with them. That's why they were made neutral and severely undercosted for their abilities.

Wait a minute....thank you for your reply, first of all....secondly.....I think I noticed something.....you said..."...MY card....(emphasis mine)..."

Would I be wrong in thinking YOU are actually Mr. Jim Black himself ??!!??

If so...thanks so much for your comments - and please don't think I was busting on you (your card) ! - I love it's special effects, etc - just not when my opponent is hammering me with them (as has been the case lately) ! Note too that we have been playing it wrong (forgot to check the Errata) and have been allowing him to come back to hand, etc - for just 1-Success Token - which made it really hard on me since if he (Descendant) made it through to a story unopposed (as sometimes happens) - he'd pick up 3-Tokens. Tossing 1 later on, to get him back, never really seemed like it was hurting him since he could come back in (if needed) and potentially hit up that same story (taking it from 2 back to 5 and winning it instantly, if not defended).

Also - because he has such a beastly combination of special effects - like Willpower - 2 Combat (FAST) - 1 Arcane (FAST) - 1 Investigation (FAST)....all for the amazing cost of 3 (compare what you get on him to ANY other 3-cost character and I can't find much that equals that), and that's what's been giving my decks fits of late (whenever he appears).

He laughs at Terror checks (thanks to Willpower) and with 2-Combat (Fast) - he handily beats MOST other 3-Cost Combat cards (many of the Gugs or Shoggoth-type things have just 1 or 2 combat..and they lose out to the tiebreaking Fast ability)...then scores a point for Investigation, and untaps/readies thanks to Arcane (most times) - lastly winning (most of the time) the Skill / Success check as well, thanks to 3-Skill (Fast). He's just amazing.

As for the concept of Champion's cards being powerful - that makes plenty of sense to me - as those guys worked hard to win and FFG was trying to reward them in a very unique (and lasting) way. I'm not familiar with the other two (Assistant to West and Mentor to Vaughn) since I don't think I've seen them in any of the Asylum Packs I've picked up since learning of this game and greatly enjoying it (the last month, appx) ... ? Where did they appear in ?

* For reference, the only AP's I DON'T have are Mountains of Madness, Ancient Horrors, Spawn of the Sleeper (first one of Summons cycle) and Antediluvian Dreams (third from that same cycle) *

-

Lastly - this is just a Lovecraft / Story question, but perhaps you or another can clarify for me ?

- Dr. West: Is he supposed to be a reference to that Re-Animator doctor, who was always trying to revive people with his serum (movies I think) ?

- Vaughn - who exactly is Vaughn ? What is his role in the Mythos or the other Lovecraftian stories ? I assume he is a "good guy" and a friend of humanity...but where does he appear (like in what stories) and is he some Professor guy - a scientist like West, a Fed like the Agency types ?

- Eibon - same questions basically...like...who or what was Eibon (I say it in the past tense, since your card is called "Descendant of...") - and what is the significance of the Book of Eibon card that I have....like...is it something humans can use to defeat the monsters of the Mythos, or something evil that they (the Mythos types) want to use against mankind ?

THANKS for any and all info you can provide !

Now the secret is out... Jim Black IS Hastur.

Yes, I am he. I don't hang out on the boards much anymore, but recently, I've found the topics interesting enough that I check in from time to time.

I didn't think you were busting on my card, so don't worry. I know the frustration of playing against my own card- it really hurrts to lose to yourself.

As to previous champ cards- they both existed in the CCG days.

Assistant to Dr. West
-
Type : Character
Cost : 3
Skill : 3
Icons : AII
Subtype : Scientist.
Response: when Assistant to Dr. West enters play from your hand, put a character with printed skill 3 or lower into play under your control from any discard pile. Disrupt: before an effect resolves, pay 1 and sacrifice a character to return Assistant to Dr. West to its owner's hand.
Collector's Info: FC R128

Mentor to Vaughn

Type : Character
Cost : 3
Skill : 3
Icons : CCA
Subtype : Sorcerer.

Willpower. Action: pay 1 to choose and exhaust a non-Ancient One character. Disrupt: before a triggered effect resolves, discard a card from hand to return Mentor to Vaughn to its owner's hand.
Collector's Info: AKD F15

I think I have a proxy set of cards from the old CCG days in Excel. Maybe I can get it posted sometime so you can see the brutality of the CCG days.

I forgot to answer your champ card questions:

Dr. West: yes, he is the infamous doctor Herbert West. See the story Herbert West: Reanimator!

Vaughn: Vaughn was (as far as I know) a character FFG made up, or got from the RPG perhaps. A lot of cards from the CCG days had flavor text that either referenced Vaughn, or were quotes from him. There were also cards like Vaughn's Diary. It never specified who he was, but he seemed to be pretty powerful.

Eibon: Eibon was a Hyperborean sorceror, mainly associated with Tsathoggua. Chaosium has a collection of stories about him called The Book of Eibon. Eibon also loosely translates as Black, so I felt it was a fitting choice by me.

Vaughn, the primary text, from the flavor text made possible by jgt771 and the Articles List.

Embracing the Abyss (UT C80)
The children skipped and chanted this rhyme:
"Veronica, Victoria, Vincent, Vance
"Knew that destiny was chance
"Vanya, Victor, Violet, Vaughn
Spell-bound Shoggoth (UT U95)
"Even Alhazred lies," explained Vaughn to the weeping man in the corner. "It's best to confirm these things with your own eyes."
The thing in the circle quivered, perhaps in fury.
Warping of Time (UT R103)
When he taught at the University, Vaughn often dreamt of these days. Now he could no longer distinguish between that time and now, or between life and dream.
Femme Fatale (FR U3)
Her expression was aloof, contemptuous. Her dress clung to her like it could never bear to be parted.
"Long time no see, Vaughn."
Vaughn was speechless.
Star Vampire Minion (FR U96)
By this time, Vaughn felt almost kindly toward it, like a pet or a child.
Wandering Dimensional Shambler (FR U97)
"The truth lies not in the spaces we know but between them. Serious explorers require a guide," Vaughn smirked.
Worm-ridden One (EE C124)
In Vaughn's marginalia to Ibn Schacabao, Victoria found the following note: "I believe that the wizard does not instruct the worm, but is instructed by it. If we walk at all on this earth, it is only through the sufferance of the dead."
Hermetic Scholar (EE R159)
The ambassadors to America had proven successful, and Vaughn's people had agreed to share their knowledge.
Son of Yeb (EE C161)
Living Mummy (EE R163)
The book had warned of this, mused Vaughn. He had succeeded in raising nothing but the liveliest awfulness.
De Vermis Mysteriis, Von Prinn's Grimoire (EE R173)
The worms held no more mysteries for Vaughn.
Winlock's Dig (EE R180)
Herbert was beginning to grow worried. Not only were there problems with that odd man Trilipush, but now Mr. Vaughn and his strange coterie had set up camp less than a mile away.
Hildred Castaigne, Future Emperor of America (MN R73)
He was lonely. She who would have been his empress now lay cold as dust, entombed in glass and displayed as a curiosity for Vaughn's visitors.
Twin of You (MN C74)
The eyes behold the eyes of mirrors,
The stallion blossoms to a mare,
Victoria to Vaughn appears
As every color, everywhere.
Cannibal Ghast (MN C95)
Vaughn kept them caged during the day, but allowed them to run free on the grounds after dark.
The Wave Function (MN R103)
"One thing is certain," began Castaigne. "Yes," interrupted Vaughn. "Uncertainty."
Water Colour (FC U75)
There was a story spread about by Vaughn's servants: that when Miss Glasser was exsanguinated, what was removed was neither liquid nor wholly real.
Mi-Go Slave (FC C96)
When it died, Vaughn would simply regrow it from the cells he kept in the lab specifically for that purpose.
Space-Eaters (FC U111)
"They desire us! Can't you see that from their actions? They have no minds, so they need ours!" Clarney didn't care what they wanted, as long as they kept their attention on Vaughn's men.
Beneath the Mire (ACC F20)
"This should fix everything..." -Vaughn

I seem to remember Sniper Rifle as being nasty, especially when it was paired with those low cost/high skill syndicate cards. Grrrrr.

I still feel CCG was more cut throat then LCG. Even the stories from CCG were nastier (IMHO). My attitude about the stories has evened out now that the nasty conspiracy cards have started coming out though.

You mean the ones that grant Icon Bonuses to JUST your guys ? (like the ones in the Yuggoth Contract current cycle ?) -