Emirikol said:

thanks for liking our idea. Fun thing it was a group colleboration, (seems my guys get the hang of the rules now). and Yeah that was a really nice break-down of our somewhat "lengthy discussions". The GM certainly needs to get used saying "ok, now make a roll". Everyone can imaginate or conjure up hot conversation in their head, placing themselves in the brightest of light. But once you walk over to that beautiful brunette, your words may come out very wrong.

Herr Arnulfe said:

A very good point. And even if the story was written like the party "could" get assistance from the duchess there is no way the players could know. Not an easy solution to that predicament.

What if?...

But you could mentioned it after the adventure was played out, or if it was too late to have any impact anyway. I do that sometimes, tell them what could happen if they had done that instead of this. Especially if they ask like, "what would the lord have done if we had convinced him of...?" I would have told them the truth, or if unable or there was no difference...lie. conjur a small intriquing story just to emphasise that social skills or abilities are THAT important, even though that some scenario writers thinks otherwise.

Correct. There are too many "Secret Door syndrome" situations that either Gm's or scenario authors put in. "Secret Door" syndrome is where if the PC's don't find a particular secret door in the dungeon, they cannot go on. The same thing apparently shows up in social situations where the PC's MUST convince the noble lady to send help. Mal's point on "could get help" is a much better plot device if you want best opportunities to arise.

The GM really must have the "could get help" situation.

jh

Mal Reynolds said:

Agreed, I've found it very helpful to discuss "What If?" scenarios with the players once the campaign has progressed beyond spoiler-zone. Usually it's the players who initiate this discussion, so I try to make sure I've written the various contingencies into my GM notes. However, the best incentive for players to feel narratively empowered is to demonstrate by example. After they've seen a few cases of social skills affecting the story, players begin to appreciate their value.

..and the beauty is, next time the Troll Slayer player says "I want to talk to the noble lady" the other players will chime in :_)

jh

I love the idea of the intoxication blotting out the insanity!

I wrote about making 'fake' rolls previously (copied and pasted here):

-

I've thought about rolling checks without giving things away, and what I try to do is to get the players to roll fairly frequently. So every new scene for example, when I'm describing where they are, what they see etc, I get them to make observation checks etc.

If they roll really well, I try to give them something a bit special, even if the scene is not that important to the plot. (I get them to roll even when in story mode.) This way, when it matters (ie, there really is something to find) I can have the players spot it. When it doesn't, they can just have a particularly detailed / interesting description of the cake seller they're passing by in the street.

This doesn't need to be limited to observation checks. At a party I could have all of the players roll fellowship checks and have the results dictate how much fun they had, throwing in some interesting anecdotes for good or bad rolls. Only if the players choose to interact with the story in more depth or specify what exactly they'd like to do will I then require additional checks for the specific things they're doing.

If the situation doesn't seem to warrant anything special happening, you can usually think of something that's not too huge. Eg., if someone rolls really well in the party scene, I might describe several different and memorable characters that they met. If they met badly, I might have them spend the rest of the night in the bathroom. Neither result has to have a fundamental impact on the plot, but either result is characterful and interesting.

When rolling observation in a street scene (where I know there's nothing of plot importance to be found), if a player rolls well, I could have them find a particularly good pie shop, of find some very good quality leather at a decent price. Rolling badly might simply have the player shoved into a pool of mud to avoid a passing cart. Again, neither result has to have a dramatic impact on the plot, but either result adds to the fun and the story.

And if there is a secret door to be found... I don't have to tell them straight away. I can let the players react to the scene, and as one of them moves around the pie shop, chatting to the pieman about how they're made, preferably as the player and NPC are roleplaying their chat, I can then tell the PC that the table the piemaker is rolling dough on looks solid (ie. it looks like a chest - it does not have legs), and as if the top of the table might lift off to reveal a storage space beneith. It's then up to the player to decide whether s/he wants to distract the piemaker long enough to try to open the door/chest.

-

Having said that, if players are interested in story then 'pointless' observations can be quite a reward. For example, future planning meetings could be conducted by the PCs at their new favourite pie shop. You can invest importance in rolls by investing importance in the story elements that come out of them.

Lastly, although the (very good) example of the eloquent player trying to talk his way through a social situation with a low-fellowship trollslayer is a good one, it honestly shouldn't happen that often. I know the people I play with wouldn't try to do that. For them, part of the fun in playing a slayer would be in roleplaying his social awkwardness.