Bladehate said:

Hmmm ... good point about the Carnodon. I'll have to ponder that. But hey, my guys are always going to find a way to break the system ... it's just what they do.

Bladehate said:

I would limit it to +1d10 damage as well. After all " Make a single Ballistic Skill Test " sounds to me like it should only get single bonus die to the damage total. Still, makes that a hellacious bonus against the "big nasty scary gribblies."

-=Brother Praetus=-

The real problem with Accurate weapons is not that they do less damage than full auto weapons... Full auto weapons typically do nickel and dime damage.. not exactly a threat anyway, except against humanoids, and I dont think anyone here has a problem if you can accurate a ganger for 25 damage, versus full auto killing him with autogun...

the problem with Accurate weapons is that they do more damage than plasma weapons and melta weapons for a fraction of the cost, and at longer range!

who cares about the early game problems... low level toons arent hitting the extra damage anyway... But high level toons... man o man, how can they even miss that +2d10 damage half the time (accurrate, dot, short range, aim == +40 to hit == 2d10 extra damage)

Accurate should increase the penetration, NOT the damage. then the ability would be fine... each 2 DoS adds 5 PEN. My group doesnt even bother bringing plasma/bolt/heavy weapons. They bring Long Las and hunting rifles and Nomads. 20 damage isnt hard to achieve with even low cost gear accurate weapons, and EVERYTHING fears the almighty hunting rifle lol, even mighty combat servitors... (space marines dont, but they still get hurt by them)

Hi Linearblade

I don't know about everyone but it's been pointed out often before that the representations of of Plasma and Melta weapons are indicative of those used by flouncy little girls (no offence to anyone). They tried to retcon it in later games saying that there was civilian and military (with a nice maximal fire mode) plasma weapons but that's like saying there's a civilian RPG available. Many people run house rules for at least an additional 1d10 damage.

Otherwise a bit light nerfing, such as forcing them to take a full action calling a shot (and inflicting -20 to hit unless they have the talents) makes it more fitting IMHO.

Face Eater said:

Exactly. Which is why - especially since Deathwatch hit the shelves - you've seen numerous threads calling for modifying the damage output of certain weapons.

I can see the point of Accurate versus Plasma/Melta/Bolt.

Not too sure how to fix that. In my mind it would be a shame if Long Las + Hunting Rifles dominate into the endgame. At least part of the joy of playing is acquiring new toys after all, and this seems to break that curve somewhat.

I think one option, at least with Bolt weapons, would also be to allow some Bolt weapons to be accurate. That way its a pretty natural progression to upgrade from Carnodons to Accurate Bolt Pistols, and from Hunting Rifles to Angellus Carbines for example.

Perhaps if you allow Plasma and Melta weapons to also let their Penetration reduce a target's TB? I know some GM's allow that to occur anyway, but perhaps keep it a unique property of these weapons. That way getting shot by Plasma or Melta guns is almost always guaranteed to hurt even if it doesn't have the damage spike possibilities of Accurate weapons.

As a part of this, perhaps allow the target to reduce the Accurate bonus dice by their TB to further reign in Accurate weapons and cement Plasma/Melta weapons as the weapon of choice for taking down the really big nasties...

Alternatively, just straight buffing Plasma/Melta weapons is also an obvious option.

Bladehate said:

Getting slightly off topic here... but boosting plasma / melta DOES need to happen. OR they need to remove tearing from bolt weapons (OR something... not the issue in this thread.... EVERYONE agrees something must change).... BUT this still doesnt solve accurate, which in reality does alittle too much damage in terms of raw throne cost.

Face Eater said:

I'm not against the called shot nerf... actually seems reasonable. still doesnt solv the fact that accurate is too powerful as a quality, only delays it.

and yes, I completely agree on the plasma/melta problems... however since they seem to continue to print junky plasma weapons, I must assume it is their intention to print junky plasma weapons...

Really if they pump up plasma too much, then hit points wont really be relevant... I think Penetration increases are the way to go. Same with Accurrate.

Would really solve the issue w/o letting DPS get out of hand.

Well, delaying the power of Accurate is still a valid albeit minor nerf.

Pushing back the power a few ranks also means that plasma weapons are more generally available and the throne cost of the weapons is less critical. Yeah, the sniper guy still obsessively polishes and tinkers with his precious gun, but the rest of the party is starting to tote around bolt guns and plasma weapons. I don't mind that accurate can somewhat compete with heavier weapons...especially in the hands of a specialized sniper. It just shouldn't be the de facto weapon of choice.

Perhaps modifying it so that Accurate Pistols receive a +1d5 and Accurate Basics can receive a maximum of +1d10?

Bladehate said:

There is a bolter with the accurate quality in DW, the Stalker pattern bolt gun. So, upto 4d10+5 tearing pen 5 on 4 degrees of success. If you use hellfire rounds you get a RF on 9 and 10. That's 67.232% (1 - 0.8^5) to RF where you get to reroll (if it's alien it's automatic even) to hit for even more damage on top of that.

There that's the craziness right there. Average of over 27 pen 5 base plus the RF on top of that. Probably a 50% chance to 1-shot space marines, cause if you RF you will be well into criticals.

A late addition to the "accurate damage is to powerfull".

Since the "logic" behind the rules systems seems to be that a sniper is able to go vital parts... disallow the rules for anything with the "Strange Physiology" trait. And make sure you add this trait to your little Daemenhosts, unless they will disintegrate once the head, the heart (etc) is destroyed

Gregorius21778 said:

I like this take on it. Of course that means it is useless to snipe Slaught.. maybe reserve it for those made of The Stuff of Nightmares? If you are immune to Criticals you should be immune to Accurate. Then again I don't let creatures with Strange Physiology die until they would recieve a lethal critical...

I wouldn't make deamonshosts immune. Yes, their strength and survival is not entirely dependent on the host body, but the connection a possessing daemon has to the material world has long been weakened if the host body is damaged or killed. So blowing the possesse's brains out, while not necessarily killing the deamonhost would bother it more than a shot through the leg (for example).

borithan said:

"Blasted! There goes my brains again. How bothersome. Oh well, time to go medieval on them Raaargh!"

A little late but...

At earlier ranks, the damage bonus was all but a given. It did require investment into BS (which luckily paid off in using FA bursts too).

And then chain weapons became available. Sporting a Nomad, I feel very inferior to the melee guy with his Eviscerator, doing 1D10 (Tearing) +10 +2 +SB, various WS bonuses (charge, ganging up, hatred, option to get it Best Quality), Blademaster and multiple attacks (though he might be out of targets in melee range because he basically one-hit-kills everyone unless they dodge the first attack - a fact that all too often negates single shots).

That's about the same damage as if I always had the full extra +2D10 and same chance to RF as with my variable number of damage dice. I need the extra 4 DoS to deal that kind of damage. He does it with 0 DoS and hits about as often with his mods and Blademaster reroll. We usually use fate points to reroll and negate jams/damage to oneself.

And while he could up his damage with more SB or upgrading to a power fist, there's this single shot which will never get any better (even the Vindicare Rifle isn't that much better than the Nomad). Not in the same league as force weapons and power fists and number of melee attacks anyway.

Chester said:

Even regarding my other comment above (about accurate bolters in DW, which aren't even as good as heavy bolters or storm bolters), I think that the most that should be done is make it mandatory for it to be a called shot.

The main point to it being the way it is, is balance with heavy weapons, full-auto, and melee damage at higher levels. When you look at a full-auto from a heavy bolter or a single shot from an MP lascanon, then it doesn't seem overpowered at all. Sure it is very good at low levels, but it isn't very good at all at high levels compared to what people can get.

Double the DoS needed for extra damage and you're good. You can still get two extra dice if the conditions are right (surprised/unaware target?) and roll really well. Even without that one extra dice is always a possibility: +10 short +10 aim +10 accurate = +30 to your BS.

Alex

ak-73 said:

So you need 8 degrees of success to get 3d10 damage. Meanwhile full-auto with the same to-hit bonuses (+10 short, +20 full-auto) with 8 degrees of success would have 9 hits. The full-auto would be much harder to dodge 8 degrees of success, while the accurate would only take success with 0 degrees to dodge. Then compare to heavy weapons that take potentially only a half action to fire and do 5d10+10 damage, at granted a -10% to-hit compared to the accurate weapon, but you only need a straight success with 0 degrees for this.

So, I do believe they could be toned down at low levels, but at high levels they are even what I would call weak. So, as I said, more like it has to be a called shot also along with needing to aim. Not perfect, but not overboard nerfing either.

Suijin said:

That's correct.

Suijin said:

Correct. That's why they are heavy weapons.

Suijin said:

Weak? Weak? You can hurt a Space Marine in Power Armour with that. 3d10+3 to remind you has an average damage of 19.5, beating even the chest armour of an average Rank 1 DW Marine who has a combined soak of 18. Without specialty ammunition that is.

Most human beings have 10 wound points and minimal armour, you can kill them with a good damage roll or with an extra dice (most of the time). I also believe you're capable of killing all animals and vermin with one well-placed shot. Which is what the weapon is intended to do, right?

I just don't want maximum damage 50% of the time. I require an exceptionally good roll for that.

And I am not going to try to make a hunting rifle be able to compete with full-automatic weapons . They are specialist weapons. I should also add that we don't allow for aiming bonuses on full-auto. And personally I'd also not allow for use of Telescopic Sight on full-auto. Other modifiers could be introduced to make full-auto fire less effective at a range.

Besides that a side effect is that hunting rifle becomes an armor cracker, kinda like an anti-tank rifle. I took down a metal-bodied mutant from an official scenario in one shot with the hunting rifle. After that we decided that this was not the way to go.

Alex

I understand your point of view.

The opposing point of view is that a sniper should be able to 1-shot an enemy, which the current damage allows for. I admit this is fine with me from a simplistic rules point of view, but maybe could use a balance of needing to aim for 2 half actions before shooting to get the extra 2d10 damage. If you only aimed for a single half action, then you would only get +1d10 extra damage.

Suijin said:

To my knowledge, that's exactly how it works currently.

MILLANDSON said:

No, it's any Aim action, at least in the version I've just checked in the Deathwatch rulebook.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yep, sorry, totally misread my copy of the DH Errata. I'd suggest that having the number of half actions used to aim limiting the number of extra d10 wouldn't be a bad idea.

Could you not play it that the extra degrees of success for your Accurate weapon are only calculated on the base BS of the shooter?

For instance, a sniper with BS 50, aiming (+10) with whatever other bonuses (totaling say +30) would hit on 90 or less.

When calculating the extra damage for Accurate, check the number of successes better than the basic BS of 50.

Very minimal rules change, allows godlike characters (Ranks 7+) to take down high powered stuff, but doesn't give such benefits to newbie characters.

I know it is quite late in the thread, but our game we have discussed OP weapons. Our findings found depending on enemy certain guns shine, mobs flamer wins hands down (I have disallowed RF as there is no to hit roll), against dodgy opponents autofire all the way, against tough (orks/slaught etc) accurate wins.

So looking at the previously given average of 2 DoS, autofire hits 3 times & accurate does +D10, next enemy dodges on a vanilla pass accurate has missed completely, but 2 autofire shots still hit home. If he is high T + AP accurate does the damage, if it hits. My best example was Ork Nob in mega armour 5 Dos from visible sniper to the head (least armoured) his dodge of 19% he passed, only just but all damage avoided. Had the Storm bolter done this 2 bullets miss 6 hits possibly good night Big Boss.

My party of 6 PC's include: Scum (autogun/ longlas/ chainsword), Tech Priest (Hellgun/ Bolt pistol/ Chainaxe), Pysker (longlas/ monosword), Cleric (plasma/ longlas/ hammer), Sister Batlle (flamer/ longlas/ chainsword), guard (lasgun/ vannaheim/ hvy stubber/ power sword)

Damage is mainly wielded by the flamer or power sword, but the highest damage to the scum who did 41 with a standard full auto from his autogun on normal bullets. Also to clarify I allow dodging of powers & force barrage in our game is a full auto attack.

From the vehicle rules I would only allow an additional d10 as a better aimed shot is more effective, most sniper bullets don't go through tanks & APC's even in tabletop they struggle.

Regards Rotislav