I have been a GM in DH since it came out now, and I have been struggling with finding more balanced rules for playing snipers.

The Accurate Weapon quality, grants an additional +1d10 dam for each 2 DoS (maximum +2d10) for basic weapons benefitting from the Aim action.

In my mind (and games), this seriously unbalanced things for several reasons:

1. Much too powerful vs. Vehicles and High TB opponents.

2. Unbalanced compared with other weapons. Placing a shot square between someone's eyes from 200 paces, still can't realitically compare to someone firing a plasma pistol in someone's face at point blank range if you ask me. a hole in the head vs. no head left... Plasma pistol still wins...

3. It is simply to easy for some to deal way too much Damage on average,with no training at all. No ttalents recquired...

4. Low level psykers with the Unnatural Aim Power, decent BS, Long-Las and a couple of Hot Shot Power Packs DO spell disaster for many an otherwise interesting encounter...

Here is what I have done instead:

Accurate fix: Now adds +5% (instead of +10%) on BS roll when used with the Aim Action (bonuses for Aiming not included).

When making a Called Shot with a weapon that has the Accurate Quality, the attack increases Dam by +1 for each DoS.

-Accurate and Aiming Stacked a bit too much (add to that Laser Sight/Unnatural Aim and you have a Lethal Killer indeed), especially as you didn't actually have to bother makin a Called Shot at all. that never made any sense to me. Claiming a high Dam bonus for randomly hitting a person in a leg is just stupid in my book.

Deadeye Shot Fix: Reduces penalty of making a Called Shot by 10 as before. In addition to this, when used with a weapon with the Accurate quality (and making a Called Shot), you now add +1 Pen for each DoS as well

Sharpshooter Fix: Ignores modifiers for Called Shot as before. Now adds (with Called Shot and Accurate) +1 Critical Damage for each DoS,on top of the Deadeye Shot Talent Fix (i.e. +1 Pen AND +1 Critical Dam for each DoS).

This balances out serveral isses, both regarding relative weapon damage, TTalents neededto become an effective Sniper, and damage vs. vehicles and high TB opponents.

Any thoughts?

You've successfully made Accurate weapons useless compared to Full Auto again.

Accurate originally was just a +10% to hit when you aim. That's it. It was quickly noticed that loading up a Autogun and blazing away was a much better option. Same to-hit bonus and more damage.

Compare a hunting rifle to a autogun. To get 3d10 dmg the hunting rifle needs 4 DoS, which is not terribly easy for your low level character example (I'd also say that giving a starting character a long-las w/ RDLS and hot shot is about equivalent to handing them a bolter with a really awful clip size).

So, Hunting rifle does 3d10+3 - AP - T. Autogun does 5x(1d10+3 - AP - T) with the same roll, and has the potential to be higher.

Let's see when the rifle will do more damage. For simplicity, I'm lumping AP and T together and replacing 1d10 with the median result, 5.

3d10+3 -AP = 5d10+15-5AP

4AP = 2d10+12

AP = 5.5

So, when AP + T =5.5, the rifle does the same damage as the Full auto, on average. If higher, Accurate averages more. If lower, Full auto averages higher more. But, don't forget Full Auto is not capped at 5d10. It could be higher, although at a certain point, the Full auto cannot penetrate the AP at all, when Accurate can. 6 AP is pretty common for low level enemies with flak.

Now, let's add Manstoppers.

3d10+3 - (AP-3) = 5d10+15 - 5(AP-3)

4AP = 2d10+24

AP = 8.5

Big surprise, the value increased by 3. Meaning, your Full Auto is now even better than before. 11AP before Manstoppers is pretty high for a low level encounter, so it's really likely that Full Auto is destroying your sniper in damage output.

I think your problem is not that Accurate is too good. It's that plasma weapons are garbage.

EDIT:

Psykers are silly in damage potential already, so complaining about Unnatural aim or perfect shot has been done already. Wait till he gets Holocaust or something really nasty.

Your Sharpshooter is now a terrible talent. I pity anyone that every takes it. And looking at a shooter with Sharpshooter is not low level. Assassins get access to it first (IIRC) at Rank 5, which is not at all low level. The rest of your group should be toting chain/power weapons, bolters, and/or heavy weapons at this point. Even if the sniper has a Nomad, he's not doing that much dmg in comparison. If you're worried, avoid giving them Angelus bolters and keep the MP Lascannon away from your Perfect aiming psykers.

Let's extend the above example to assume that instead of exactly 4 DoS, the shooter gets 5. The AP tipping point is now 9, instead of 8.5. How about 8 DoS? It's now 12ish. The point is, that FA scales better than Accurate, as the player gets more stats.

You can say Called shots allow you to bypass armor, but in the game, how many enemies do you throw at your players with Power Armor and no helmets? If you're just starting out, why does it matter if your sniper head shots (probably without Deadeye or Sharpshooter, which takes Rank 5 for an assassin) a mook and bypasses his flak vest?

Last point. Full Auto gives a higher chance at RF due to throwing more dice.

Offcourse the Autogun will be better against an average opponent when firing on Full Auto, than some sort of low grade sniper weapon. I give you that. hands down.

And yes, the plasma pistol is not nearly dangerous enough, but that goes for nearly all weapons. The average enemy has 10 Wounds, a TB of 3 after all. That would require a Damage 14 just to get a +1 critical and around 20 to ensure a kill. Pretty hard to do with most single shot weapons. I'm not arguing with you there.

What I am saying, is that it takes it too far (in comparison with ALL other comarative weapons, special ammo, Talents, etc) when one gets an additional +2d10 added to DAMAGE, and that just for spending ha Half Action aiming for a RANDOM spot on someone's body.

One of the reasons this is illogical, is the rules for Cover and Vehicles (if one assumes that the Vehicle rules in DH Apochrypha is in the ballpark when it comes to the toughness of vehicles, etc). You can aim all you wan't, but if you attempt to fire through a stone wall at someone, you don't really make it that much easier by aiming at some random spot before firing. It can to some degree be justified when firing at living targets, but not at those which lack those "soft spots".

Lets take the other end of the scale for reference then, the Vindicare Assassin at work.

Exitus Rifle 2d10+2, Pen 9. Add +2 Damage and +4 Critical (Perfect Shot).

with a BS of 75, +10 for Aiming, +10 for Short Range, +10 for a Red-dot Laser Sight and a further +10 for accurate, that comes to a 115% chance of making the shot, with a 95% chance of doing 3d10+4 damage, Pen 9, +4 Critical, and a 75% chance of doing 4d10+4 damage with a Pen of 9 and a +4 Critical!

and all that is without any RF at all, and this can be done each round.

With my idea, lets say the Vindicare hits and rolls 4 DoS, he gets 2d10+8 for Dam, Pen 13 and +8 Critical if he removes all the wounds from his target. That is coparable to a direct hit from a Mars Pattern Inferno Pistol if I'm not mistaking, and that's a weapon designed to take out armoured vehicles.

note, that since each DoS adds to all 3 types of "Damage", this migh become a bit higher, but it still limits the maximum potential damage, as it drastically lowers the chance of RF...

Now, with that Pen modifier and that damage, you'll have to find pretty "intersting" enemies every time to make the game challenging and fun for the players. Offcourse, you can always argue that the GM can use this as well, but how many players willfind a game where they get taken out by a sniper, with no chance of survival at, all that much fun.

The way the rules are now, every player should pick up an Accurate Basic wepon,, just to make a mockery of all those supposedly really tough opponents which often are there to make the game fun after all.

I was thinking of changing the +1 to Pen for each DoS with the +1 to Critical Damage for each DoS however. This would make Sharpshooters better at targeting vehicles and the like, while those wiith "only" deadeye shot, could get the Critical Damage bonus instead.

In the end, it just comes down to the style of play you like, and what your player's like as well.

I'm going to start off by saying you're free to play however you want. I'm just here to tell you why it's a bad idea.

Nerfing Accurate pushes a game that heavily favors Full Auto weapons even further in that direction.

Chaplain Uziel said:

And why should it? A hunting rifle and an Autogun are on the same tier. Why should an Autogun do more damage automatically? Ammo is nearly free. He's not taking any extra time to fire vs the guy aiming and firing an Accurate weapon.

Chaplain Uziel said:

But it makes more sense that spending an extra half round action gets you a potential extra 9d10+x dmg from extra shots? Just because you pick a random spot doesn't mean you didn't aim. You're aiming at center mass.

Chaplain Uziel said:

Ok, let's take your wall. You say it doesn't make sense for a high powered sniper rifle to be able to aim through a wall. For the sniper with a hunting rifle/long las to make it through a stone wall, it needs to roll much higher than average. Stone is 16 AP. Assuming a relatively low creature AP of 6, that means, on the 3d10, the player would need to roll 7 or higher on all three dice to do minor damage. If it's a more combat savvy enemy, his AP is probably 8-10, requiring RF to do any real damage. Call it an excellent shot that hit a part of the enemy that was juuust sticking out, if you want. Or damage from sharpnel due to a close hit.

For vehicles, the shot would be through a small vent or view port.

Don't take it so literally to mean the player is punching through the wall/vehicle. Weak points and other explanations explain how a well aimed shot can do some damage. It's not like they can blow through a Rhino's armor and one shot the guy inside it. He might take a very minor wound.

Chaplain Uziel said:

Well, we jumped from Accurate is unbalanced at low level with no talents to a Vindicare. Ok...

If you think Ascension level is really about combat, you're off on the wrong foot to start with. But, Vindicares are the pinnacle of human fighters. They *should* be able to destroy things that they shoot at. Exitus rifles are specifically designed to be one shot, one kill weapons.

But, let's look at our Vindicare's buddy, the Stormtrooper who also has Perfect shot. While the Vindicare lined up his measely 4d10+4, ol' Stormie blazed away with his much more common heavy bolter with targetter (75 + 20 Full Auto + 10 Targetter +10 Short range =115%) for a paltry 10d10+20-20d10+40 Tearing Pen 5 with +4 crit on each hit.

Notice how Mighty shot scales with Full Auto and not Accurate? Notice how, while our Vindicare might have blown a hole in the guy behind the stone wall, ol' Stormie knocked the wall down AND pasted the guy behind it. This is an Ascension comparison, so a heavy bolter is an extremely reasonable weapon to use, but if you really want to keep it basic weapons, give him a storm bolter instead. That's 8d10+56, Pen 4 Tearing. Regular bolter is 4d10+28, Pen 4, Tearing.

All that full auto fire can be concentrated to take out a big guy, or spread to wipe out a group.

That single shot doesn't seem so bad now, does it?

Chaplain Uziel said:

And then your Vindicares will start toting Bolters instead of Exitus rifles.

Chaplain Uziel said:

Or they could just grab their bolters and smoke your interesting enemies and their sidekicks as well.

Chaplain Uziel said:

The way the rules are now, any player not using the beefiest Full Auto capable gun they can find is doing it for concept only. Your change only exacerbates the problem.

Chaplain Uziel said:

Yeah, and I'd prefer to play in one where Sniper rifles are actually dangerous in the hands of a trained marksman, rather than just having a ton of spray and pray machine gunners.

As I said previously, your issues are with

1. Unnatural Aim/Perfect shot

2. Taking things in a vacuum by ignoring what FA can do

3. non-Full auto SP/Bolt weapons being complete crap.

4. Taking the penetration aspect too literally.

Not Accurate.

2. should be 'non-FA or non-SP/Bolt weapons' meaning Plasma, most las weapons (including hellguns), and non-FA SP/Bolt weapons.

Chaplain Uziel said:

Instead of what you suggested, I would tackel your stated problems the following way

1) Exclude Vehicles
As far as I can see it, no matter how tough some-one is, a well placed shot to a vital (heart;brain;what-you-got) will kill you. The rules try to do this with "moar dammage!" since the rules do not know an instant kill. I see that this is FUBAR for vehicles, but I think with "flesh and blood", it works quiet find.

1.1) This cannot hurt me!
Houserule that If the weapon damage+PEN alone is not able to overcome AP+TB, sniping will not do any good since the attack simply will not carry deep enough int to the body to destroy any vital. I do not not if this is "realistic", but since WH40K isn´t about realismen it should suit you well.
But this will only prevent people with regular hunting rifles and regular ammonition (13) to kill your full flakk + face helm wearing ogryn (14; I believe).

2) Wrong end of the problem
I am with you regarding the plasma pistole example. But in my opinion this is a bug of the plasma pistole. And the hack shotgun. And any gun you would fire into someones face, for that matter. In short, for the whole rules of firing (and hitting with) a weapon into face at point blank.

3) Requiere a Talent
Call it "Marksman Training" an allow it only to the ranks and type you deem appropriate. Although I would not. I do not think that killing someone from a far with a rifle with scopes is that big a deal as long as you know how to handel a rifle and are an experienced shooter (good BS). People with actual weapon knowledge are free to countradict me here.

4) That´s how it is
As soon as you talk "combat encounter", pskyer do spell disaster. Full stop. If it is not unnatural shooter it is the Biomant who throw biolightning into your planned melees or the guy with FEAR scaring off 2/3 of your mob. Or the flash-bang-guy who turns the ambush into a "all are confused, but we run away in confusion". Like in point 2), I think this is a psyker problem in general. Otherwise, 3) should provide a solution here.

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

First of all, comparing an Accurate Weapon with those of a Full auto weapon is not relly all that relevant in my book. I see your point, but for me it is not about comparing the Damage per round with that of Full Auto weapons or that of the potential damage that a Psyker can do in a round. It's about still keeping those "boss" encounters a little challenging and fun for all.

You might have more experience with this problem, since I favor a more investigative style of play where carrying around Autoguns or Heavy Bolters would just scare the hell out of people,and leave you a very lonely man at that bar where you wished to use your Investigation skills. I haven't allowed my players to play Pyromancers yet, as it was obvious to see that some of those powers could really destroy a good game as well.

The problem I see with Accurate the way it is now, is that it is to EASY to become a lethal sniper. It doesn't require ANY of the Sniper" Talents, nor the player to really Aim at a specific part of a target at all.

At longer ranges, Snipers have to properly aim, taking into acount factors such as wind, temperature, the rotation of the earth, etc, to be able to make that "perfect" shot, and in my book, not even properly aiming at someone's head or body is just not going to justify the ridiculous additional damage done (compared to the damage increase granted by Mighty shot, Crack Shot, Special Ammunition, or having a Higher Power Rifle, etc).

Now, don't misunderstand. I like the idea of the dangerous sniper, but I don't think that this is something that anyone can just do with just picking up daddy's hunting rifle and having a go at it. At least, not to it's fullest potential.

I had a couple of players carrying around a Long Las in my group for a while now, and in my experince, they made those "boss" level encounters, which could have been challenging and fun, into something that lasted 1-3 rounds and which left everyone feeling a bit, unsatified...

One good examlpe is the "Demon Host/skae-Thing" found in the "Illumination" adventure inthe DH rulebook, which I guess is intended to be a difficult challenge for players at that level. With a couple of "snipers", it really isn't. That potential +1d10 or +2d10 additional damage is really overpowered against hight TB opponents (Daemonic or Unnatural). It makes a mockery of having Holy Weapons for one thing. Against Daemons, a sniper would do a little bit extra damage, but an increase in Pen and Critical damage, would be largely wasted, allowing Daemons and Daemon Hosts etc, to be the dreadfull things they are supposed to be.

One thing that my rule also fixes, is that ALL weapons with the Accurate quality now gets that damage bonus when making a Called Shot, which allows "duellists" with Accurate Pistols to do a bit more damage as well.

I don't quite follow. You say that the comparison between the damage of full auto an a sniper is not relevant since it's all about keeping boss-encounters challenging? But isn't the comparison extremely relevant in this case? Is it more challenging if the boss dies to a single full auto burst than if he dies to a single sniper shot? If we are talking about combat challenge, then damage output should be the most relevant part of all.

The Skae-thing might not be a challenge to a couple of snipers (don't know, haven't done the math), but he isn't a challenge for a couple of soldiers with autoguns either.

Ok, I never intended it to be a comparison to the Full Auto rules, which I see as being much to powerful (compared to Semi-auto and Single Shot) already). I have made some House Rule modifications to the rules for Full Auto as well, but that's another matter as far as I'm conserned. If every weapon is going to be compared to comparative weapon (price, availability and damage potential) with the Full Auto option, they will always come out second best the way the rules are now. That's a given. Even the supposedly mighty Boltgun might come out second best more often than not. I can post some of the fixes for that as well if anyone is interested.

The Skae-thing can absolutly be a challenge to a couple of soldiers with autoguns, on account of its hight TB (10) and 37 Wounds. A soldier with a BS of lets say 45, which is good for a low level character) will (assuming the value ov an average d100 roll, be around the 50-51mark ), will on average hit him with two shots each round (3 if he is on short range), granting a total damage of 2d10+6-20 (a total average of minus 3) to 3d10+9-30 (a total average of minus 4,5). Unlless they roll a cople of points above average, they won't really hurt him much at all. Yes, they can get RF's, but that's only a chance in one of 10 shots, and an Autogun Jams nearly that often (unless you have a reliable autogun).

This is an example of an encounter which should make the player's think about how to solve it, not just go in blasting with their Full-auto weapons and get it over with.

If your player like that style of play, that is fall fine and well. No need do tweak things at all really.

I felt the same regarding Accurate Weapons when our groups rank 2 Assassin would have killed the major villain of Edge of Darkness in round 1 of the encounter with a single shot, if I had not given the villain the Touched by Fates trait (i.e. 4 Fate Points) at the very same moment. He simply used Quick Draw (Free Action) to draw his Hunting Rifle (or already had it in hand) aimed for half a round (Half Action) and dealt something like 26 Damage with Pen 3 with a single shot (Half Action)…

In the end we decided that you have to Aim for a full action (2 Half Actions; i.e. +20 to hit) to have the possibility of getting the extra damage bonus. Thereby sniping as such is still possible, but it is not something usable in every odd shoot-out every round in ea never ending cycle of death (Aim – Standard Attack – NPC dead - Aim – Standard Attack – NPC dead - Aim – Standard Attack – NPC dead - Aim – Standard Attack – NPC dead - Aim – Standard Attack - …).
Besides Plasma Weapons (which really were underpowered) got a nice boost by the rules in RT for military Plasma Weapons.

I had a player with a long las and autogun and I came up with the following houserules

1) You need to call a shot to gain the accurate bonus damage (i said at the chest or head) - I like this as it didn't really make a lot of sense to gain that extra damage because you were aiming for a weekspot but rolling randomly (even damaging through cover).

2)You only get the extra damage if the opponant is unaware of your attack. Probably going to far.

3) it never came up but it shouldn't apply to vehicles.

In hindsight, the players weren't using autoweapon as effectively as possible even this same player usually said his autogun was useless. I've played two other games since then that proved it wrong. Even against high toughness/armour opponants the much higher chance of RF makes it all but inevetable.

The reason I nerfed the crap out of it (to far I'll admit) was when he was in a melee combat disengaged (but other players stayed in combat) and pointblanked into melee with his Long Las for several turns of big damage. If that had been an autofire weapon he wouldn't have a had anywhere near the damage when shooting into combat.

The problem I have is that at point blank range why does a accurate weapon do more damage? And if it doesn't how does it do less damage when you are very close? By extension, shouldn't all weapons be accurate and point blank range?

Chaplain Uziel said:

So, what are your FA nerfs to make it on par with your nerfed Accurate?

If you take your same example with an Accurate weapon (BS 45, roll of 50), the shooter gets 1d10+3-10 damage, an average of -2. 2d10+6-10, if he has a RDLS or short range to bump the DoS, an average of 6, which gives the uber monster 7 rounds of average damage to run up and rip the sniper's face off. If you don't think one of the FA shooter could get a great roll of 5-6 hits with some RF in that time, you're just biased.

It's already a given that Accurate weapons are better against single, high total AP targets. That's their entire function. Against low and middling AP enemies, the Full Auto users will kill 2-3 times as many enemies as a sniper.

Face Eater said:

#3 is the only one of those I agree with.

At PB range, your full autogun would have gotten 3 extra shots, compared to the extra 1d10 granted to the long las. If you think PB w/ a long las is bad, never give your players a Vanaheim. Full Auto PB + scatter.

You said yourself that your players were using autoguns wrong. Take the scenarios where you had problems with sniper weapons and consider how much damage a full auto burst would have done. They are perfectly comparable, because they require the same action to complete, 1 full round.

1. I don't like to exclude vehicles as I do like to try to get any house rules to fit with all aspects of the game.

Against normal humans, it might seem reasonable to some extent, I just think that is is overkill compared to the additional damage afforded from talents, special ammunition or better weapons. But There are times when Toughness is used on creatures, that don't really have those "soft spots". I would think a Daemon Host (Daemonic Trait) is perhaps one of the best examples of this, but it might apply to all daemons as well. Sure, they may look the part, but I certainly don't see why such a massive extra damage would apply if someone tried to target something as the head of the host the daemon was occupying, as he is just a warp entity inside a bag of flesh. It might also realistically apply to all with the The Stuff of Nightmares Trait.

1.1. I think we can all agree that it is not that easy to execute someone with one shot, plasma pistol or not. Even a hand-cannon should realistically blow half the head off someone in that situation.

3. I really don't want to add Talents and such to existing Careers. There is too much of that in the errata already. I much rather prefer to work "within the system" as it were.

4. I can't really comment on the bio-lightning aspect of the game, as I haven't so far seen that aspect of the game being tested out in my games. The psyker is actually playing a Telepath, which gives the game another dimension entirely. Bio-Lightning into Melee, isn't that a 25% chance for hitting your friends if you try that? At least in Ascension it is.

Gregorius 21778 Said:

Instead of what you suggested, I would tackel your stated problems the following way

1) Exclude Vehicles
As far as I can see it, no matter how tough some-one is, a well placed shot to a vital (heart;brain;what-you-got) will kill you. The rules try to do this with "moar dammage!" since the rules do not know an instant kill. I see that this is FUBAR for vehicles, but I think with "flesh and blood", it works quiet find.

1.1) This cannot hurt me!
Houserule that If the weapon damage+PEN alone is not able to overcome AP+TB, sniping will not do any good since the attack simply will not carry deep enough int to the body to destroy any vital. I do not not if this is "realistic", but since WH40K isn´t about realismen it should suit you well.
But this will only prevent people with regular hunting rifles and regular ammonition (13) to kill your full flakk + face helm wearing ogryn (14; I believe).

2) Wrong end of the problem
I am with you regarding the plasma pistole example. But in my opinion this is a bug of the plasma pistole. And the hack shotgun. And any gun you would fire into someones face, for that matter. In short, for the whole rules of firing (and hitting with) a weapon into face at point blank.

3) Requiere a Talent
Call it "Marksman Training" an allow it only to the ranks and type you deem appropriate. Although I would not. I do not think that killing someone from a far with a rifle with scopes is that big a deal as long as you know how to handel a rifle and are an experienced shooter (good BS). People with actual weapon knowledge are free to countradict me here.

4) That´s how it is
As soon as you talk "combat encounter", pskyer do spell disaster. Full stop. If it is not unnatural shooter it is the Biomant who throw biolightning into your planned melees or the guy with FEAR scaring off 2/3 of your mob. Or the flash-bang-guy who turns the ambush into a "all are confused, but we run away in confusion". Like in point 2), I think this is a psyker problem in general. Otherwise, 3) should provide a solution here.

1. That makes sense to me as well. I also use the Called Shot Rules from RT btw. but, I'm not going to limit it to Head or Body, as I have insted limited the average additional Pure Damage from sniping, and applied higher Criticals and Penetration instead. If someone want's to go for a Knee, that's fine by me.

2. I think that forcing them to make a Called Shot is far enough really, since that requires them to spend a Full Action to make the attack. If they want, they can spend a round Aiming before firing, granting a +20 to BS (which translates into a nice +2 Dam, +2 Critical and a +2 Pen as well, assuming we are talking of a Sharpshooter here. This way, if you take someone down a low critical, you more than likely kill them (especially if you have the Crack Shot Talent as well). Personally, I think a +1 to Dam, Critical and Pen for each DoS is more than enough, especially as it becomes quite easy to get those DoS'es with a modified high BS.

Radomo said:

After some feedback, and reading people's opinions here on the forum, I'm tweaking the rule a little bit, but not much.

Deadeye Shot now does additional Critical Dam (+1/DoS), while Sharpshooter allows a true proffessional to target weak spots in armour and vehicles (+1Pen/DoS).

Also, I'm implementing the -10 to Dodge/DoS for Called Shots. Again, I'm using Called Shot as it works in RT, not in DH.

Radomo said:

In this situation he was firing into combat which (using the optional rules) you can't do without risking hiting your buddies.

As I said I wasn't completely happy with it myself.

But my main issue is a conceptual one, why would the accuracy of weapon effect the damage it does at point blank range?

Chenged the -10/doS to Doge for Called Shots to a locked -20 instead. That's a heft -40 if you ever get to play a Vindicare with the exitus ammunition...

Just a few comments and questions:

1. You guys talk about Accurate vs Vehicles, but afaik there are no rules for vehicle combat in the DH core book. Where can I find them? Since there are no clear cut rules or since they are not Core (as in in the original rulebook, everything else is extra and optional), it would be up to the GM to decide how such a weapon affects vehicles or persons inside them.

In my book, I'd allow accurate against vehicles with unprotected areas (say a car with normal glass windows), but not armored vehicles.

2. I'm considering only letting Accurate damage apply if normal damage penetrates the opponent's AP+TB. Would that be unbalancing it again?

3. I'm also partial to the "need full-action aim for Accurate damage" suggestion, and have just forgotten to apply the house rule in my game. Again, how much would that favor other weapons such as full-auto guns?

My game is at rank 9 now and the current ranged weapons used are:

Nomad sniper rifle

Autoguns with manstopper (occasionally)

Bolt Pistols

best quality .54 Tranters w/recoil glove and manstopper/dum dum.

Hellguns customized for full-auto

Hellpistols.

Vanaheim shotgun.

Among these the top damage dealers have been:

1. Nomad

2. Vanaheim (but only occasionally because of low penetration)

3. Hellgun/w FA

The other guns on my list have been used for consistently medium-high damage, often enough to take out goons in one shot, and usually enough to hurt targets with good armor and /or TB.

1. If I'm not mistaking, there will be official vehicle rules in the Rogue Trader supplement, Into the Storm. Until now, there has only been the DH -Apocrypha -Vehicles which I think was released by Black Industires, but I have only seen it available as a pdf. Can't remeber where I found it though. It has been a while..

-I agree with you on the idea of shooting at people inside the vehicles behind glas windows as well. Then they are the target, and not the vehicle itself. The window might provide a little cover though, depending on window type and such.

2. Hard to say really. One potential disadvantage here, is that you might actually have to tell your player(s) after they have shot at a target, that they can't actually harm him. This might reveal that for some mysterious reason (he might have the Daemonic Trait or unnatural Toughness x(2)), which they otherwise would have a hard time finding out. but that comes more down to the style of play you prefer, than realism itself I would say.

3. It seems everyone is comparing the idea with the maximum potential damage that a proper Full-auto weapon can do in a round, but my feeling is that that is not solving the problem at all, and has little to do with the realism of using a Sniper Rifle or similar weapon properly. The Full Auto rules are generally much to powerful the way I see them, and I personally have made some house rules to limit their potential maximum damage in my games (RF's locked at 25%, No Might Shot or Crack Shot Bonuses apply). This still leaves them capable of getting in a lot of hits and useful for clearing away henchmen, but not nearly as overpowering when facing tougher opposition. It also makes Semi-auto weapons a bit more preferable for the "proffessional" solder types.

Looking at your weapons, you do seem to favour playing at the same level as me when it comes to weapons etc.

I also notice that the Nomad comes out on top, which is not surprising if you use the potential +2d10 to damage, and have no need to make called shots with it to get those bonuses. Then you can just Quick Draw it, take a Half Action Aim and a Half Action Snap Shot. With the Short Range and Point Blank Range Bonuses, this additional damage isn't that hrd to inflict when you think about it.

I would just like to point out, since HEAVY Weapons was brough into the discussion earlier, the the only Heavy Weapons that the playes have gotten their hands on, and bothered to use in my game so far, is the Heavy Stubber and once a Missile Launcher. Those are about the only two weapons that I can actually conscievably see someone lugging around as well. Hell, carrying a Heavy Bolter must be like carrying 2-3 car batteries in you arms. I'd like to see someone lugging that around alone for a while without getting Fatigued. Space Marines, no problems. Normal Humans, don't really think so... Unless we're talking of truly exceptional people like "Gunnery Sargeant Harker" of the Imperial Guard book. I would imagine he is somewhat of a special case...The point is, that in my games, the damage that such heavy weapons become more or less irrelevant, no matter what level my players are at.

The day that a mob with pitchforks, the occational gun and molotiw coctails don't represent any threat at all to my players, then I know it has gone to far. Just to be clear, I use the RF rule for ALL enemies.

Friend of the Dork said:

1. Hmm ok. Well let's wait and see before we complain that Accurate is broken vs vehicles... I've yet to have a vehicle fight in my game anyway, and if I needed one I would wing it. Otherwise, my acolytes have never gotten access to armed and armored vehicles and they probably won't unless they are already destroyed.

2. Well how is that different than shooting at someone with UTx2 and armor with a stub revolver? The system woks on the concept that if you can't deal enough damage, you will not hurt an enemy. Note that on a natural 10 the acolytes would potentially get Fury, so there really is no maximum.

3. Our assassin always uses the Nomad with called shot, since he's a crack shot. So in addition to getting the +2d10 extra damage, he might even bypass armor all together. You'd be suprised how many NPCs have incomplete armor in modules, especially in social settings (which the acolytes are usually in). Requiring a called shot to get the extra damage would make the Assassin and Scum shrug, while the Arbitrator and Psyker would stick to their usual weapons. In any case, it's at the high level that Accurate weapons really shine and you almost always get the +2d10.

Now the only real debuff of the Accurate weapons is either to require the base damage to be enough to penetrate before applying the extra dice (which would be another incentive to use called shots), and/or require a full-action aim (which I think is how the ability should have been in the first place).

The question is, should using Accurate weapons in close shootouts be a good option to using full-auto and semi-auto guns? Or should it be reserved for the rare occasions where you can ambush and snipe enemies? Will accurate be good if you can only use it every other round?

Heavy Weapons: The acolytes have encountered Heavy Stubbers, Rocket Launchers, and even an old Autocannon. The've used the HS briefly, but generally considered it too heavy to log around and either given them away to locals or let them be. The Autocannon (from a IG Stormtrooper weapons cache, which explains their Hellguns) they considered using against a camp full of orks, but decided against it and left it and the orks behind.

And pitchforks will already not harm my acolytes (being primitive), but molotovs (fire bombs) will indeed. I don't use RF on normal enemies because statistics indicate that they will get some against them in just normal combats and will be scratching FPs every other session. Despite this they have found need to scratch FPs from time to time.

I have however debated the uselessness of primitive weapons in DH in another thread, and come to the conclusion that primitive weapon attacks either need RF, a way to bypass partial location armor (open helmets)¨, or some other chance of getting extra damage.

Chaplain Uziel said:

Chaplain Uziel said:

1. I have used the DH Apocrypha Vehicles for a long while now, and one of the reasons I don't like the Accurate the way it is, it because it provides such a huge potential pure damage bonus (especially vehicles which becasue of their size, are extremly easy to hit).
I remember having some Sons of Dispater asassins attempting to take out my players in front of a bank (or something similar) where there was a lot of Vehicles which they attempted to use as cover. This didn't qite work though, as two of the players (Guardsman and Psyker at low rank) brought out their Long-las rifles and actuelly started to blow up every vehicle that the Assassins attempted to hide behind. I really hadn't accounted for the fact that this was even possible at the time, but it actually wasn't that hard according to the vehcle apocrypha rules. This was one of the first instances when I allowed vehicles, an d that was also to test these rules.

2. Te RF are in my book mostly fine, especially against enemies at least partially of flesh and blood, or even the likes of Necrons for that matter. As I've said, I always use this, and this I have always done. Even in WHFRP 1 and 2 I always allowed this for NPC's as well, and to be honest, it has never been a problem. It would have been, if ther was no such thing as fate points however. I don't think that it is stretching it that once in a while, an NPC's will hurt you, so it intrucuses a real element of danger to all combat situations, even if your players are wearing decent armour and/or having a hight Toughness score. In reality, an NPc rolling RF rarely kills a player in my experience, but it does allow them to be able to wound the players more often (or at all at higher tiers).
It wouldn't be different from attacking a tough opponent with a stub revolver, with the exception that then you might still fire the pistol, knowing that you can roll that RF. You can always roll that RF with a sniper rifle as well, so telling a player that a target is so tough/armoured, that a roll (non RF) is not going to cut it against a particlar enemy (AP +TB equal to or more than normal damage caused by weapon), really justs set a "special" limit on Accurate weapons, while allowing it for all others. That is the reson why I personally would never go for that solution.

3. I like the idea that both players an NPC's arent completly armoured. Only a very few would reaslistically wear any head armour in any kind of social situations at all. This is a regular occurence in my campagns as well, but I do think that against accurate weapons, not wearing a complete set of armour, penalizes someone way to much (especially compared to all other damage modifiers such as talets, special ammunition, or even substantially more powerful weapons). Thas is my opinion, and I realize that people may or may not agree with this. That is fine.
I think we are on the same page (or close at least) when it comes to how Accurate weapons could be best used to their maximim potential, and in which situations the weapon is not supposed to shine.
I am a fervent believer that all tree weapon fire-modes (Single/Semi/Full) should have should have more distinct bonuses and penalties than they do in the current rules. I would like to see the Semi-Auto mode "shine" a little more compared to the other two as they stand now, and instead of making the Semi-auto mode more powerful by changing it, I've opted to change the other two firing modes instaed, as I see those two as being more "broken". The Single Shot mostly beiing able to cause way to much pure damage together with an accurate weapon much to often, and Full-auto weapons being able to cause way to many RF's and having much to great a benefit from additional Talents and such that grant a bonus to Damage in some form or another).

With limiting these two firing modes somewhat, I personally think that players will actually choose more Semi-auto weapons as they get skills such as Migthy Shot and Crippling Shot. I have a hard time imagining that NPC's will Full auto weapons or Accurate Weapons, are not taking just as much a toll on the Fate Points of the PC's as it would if RF's were allowed for all NPC's as well.

We are in the middle of the Haarlock Legacy campaign here now, and even with the enemies adjusted to their level, the Pc's are gaining way more FP's than they are loosing, even if I allow RF's for NPC's. Realistically, they do need to loose FP's here and there, too keep it exciting. Especially the guardsmen and Arbites I have found. They tend not to loose them (even with RF's against them) very often. That is my experience at least, and this was much the same for the "warrior careers" in WHFRP as well. Just to be clear, as a GM I do tnd to target the obvious fighter types a bit more than the others, simply because against reasonably intelligent foes, they are often the most immediate and obvisously greatest threat. This limits the RF's againt those "weaker" PC's, but even then It is not often that the "fighter" types "die" because of RF.

For me, the mob issue is a matter of principle. I don't ever want my players thinking that "that guy pointing a pistol at me, can't realistically harm me anyway, so I go for it". In my mind, that takes the game much closer to the kind of game that D&D is the prime example of, and which I personally have a very hard time to relate to as a player as well. I think that if something seems obvious or logical in real life, then a good game system should support this as well. That is why I have a lot of huse rules here. The DH rules are actually very good from a core-standpoint, and that which doesn't quite work, are often not that hard to fix.

I agree wih you in the primitive issue as well, but since I allow RF for all NPC's that has naturally never been an issue that has come up here.

QUOTE efidm=381061]

Friend of the Dork Said:

1. Hmm ok. Well let's wait and see before we complain that Accurate is broken vs vehicles... I've yet to have a vehicle fight in my game anyway, and if I needed one I would wing it. Otherwise, my acolytes have never gotten access to armed and armored vehicles and they probably won't unless they are already destroyed.

2. Well how is that different than shooting at someone with UTx2 and armor with a stub revolver? The system woks on the concept that if you can't deal enough damage, you will not hurt an enemy. Note that on a natural 10 the acolytes would potentially get Fury, so there really is no maximum.

3. Our assassin always uses the Nomad with called shot, since he's a crack shot. So in addition to getting the +2d10 extra damage, he might even bypass armor all together. You'd be suprised how many NPCs have incomplete armor in modules, especially in social settings (which the acolytes are usually in). Requiring a called shot to get the extra damage would make the Assassin and Scum shrug, while the Arbitrator and Psyker would stick to their usual weapons. In any case, it's at the high level that Accurate weapons really shine and you almost always get the +2d10.

Now the only real debuff of the Accurate weapons is either to require the base damage to be enough to penetrate before applying the extra dice (which would be another incentive to use called shots), and/or require a full-action aim (which I think is how the ability should have been in the first place).

The question is, should using Accurate weapons in close shootouts be a good option to using full-auto and semi-auto guns? Or should it be reserved for the rare occasions where you can ambush and snipe enemies? Will accurate be good if you can only use it every other round?

Heavy Weapons: The acolytes have encountered Heavy Stubbers, Rocket Launchers, and even an old Autocannon. The've used the HS briefly, but generally considered it too heavy to log around and either given them away to locals or let them be. The Autocannon (from a IG Stormtrooper weapons cache, which explains their Hellguns) they considered using against a camp full of orks, but decided against it and left it and the orks behind.

And pitchforks will already not harm my acolytes (being primitive), but molotovs (fire bombs) will indeed. I don't use RF on normal enemies because statistics indicate that they will get some against them in just normal combats and will be scratching FPs every other session. Despite this they have found need to scratch FPs from time to time.

I have however debated the uselessness of primitive weapons in DH in another thread, and come to the conclusion that primitive weapon attacks either need RF, a way to bypass partial location armor (open helmets)¨, or some other chance of getting extra damage.

I won't really get into another long analysis Chaplain. Some of your posts I have agreed with, some I haven't.

This is definitely another one of the latter.

In a game where full auto is the damage king, nerfing the alternatives to FA seems counter-intuitive. Of course, reading your threads collectively it's pretty clear that you feel the basic combat system itself needs extensive tweaking.

I am not sure why you feel such extensive modification is even necessary.

However, I don't think most people feel the same way which is why you're generally getting a negative response, even though you are posting it in the right forum.

I wish you luck in your game, but I think I prefer the original product to your alternatives.

Thank you, and that is fine. To each his own as they say.

It all comes down to the kind of game one wants I guess. You are right, I have modified each of the firing modes somewhat. We tend to focus on the investiagion aspect on the game more, but I feel that the game mechanics need to be in place, or you may end up having a hard time actually "telling a good story". I know it comes off a litte "odd" to people, but the rules we use take into account for RF for all NPC's as well, and has to be balanced to account for that. amongst other things. I see why people have some problems with it, cause it's hard to just apply half the puzzle. I admit they are not perfect, but I do think the rule changes benefit the role-play aspect of it as a whole. I honestly don't think people have cosidered the whole picture here either, for one thing, this rule aslo allow for the use of the Accurate Quality, for ALL weapons, which means that your "gunslinger" may insted get another nasty trick up his sleeve, even if he won't have the same success s before, running around with an Autopistol in each hand and just about taking on everyone in general. More on this later.

Bladehate said: