I was curious to gain your thoughts on how well all the parts work.

I really need the insight..

Thanks in advance

New dice mechanic - A single roll of a dice pool that provides hit/miss result and damage result, plus critical effects is brilliant

New dice mechanic - Different dice in the dice pool, allowing an aid in GM/player narrating the action is a nice touch and can be used as much or as little as needed.

Stance mechanic - I like it, it provides some variety in the actions and offers some tactical options to the players that are "away" from a tactical map

Abstract ranges - I, personally love this mechanic. It allows quick set up of action, and gets away from worrying about direct placement of minis, greatly reduces the amount of time players worry about exactly where their mini should be on the tactical map, and allows for more descriptive, cinematic action rather than war gamist tactical discussions. some people prefer the war gamist tactics though, so may not suit everyone.

New spell mechanic - haven't used much spell casting so difficult to say how much i like this yet. Principle is ok, i think, and seems to work ok in combat. I think for some, how to get this (and actions generally) working outside of encounter mode has been a struggle and isn't clearly discussed in the rules.

Actions - as above, i think within encounter mode they work well, and i do like the recharge mechanic making people plan tactically which actions to use when rather than just spamming their preferred action over and over. I think it really promotes party team work as well, but as mentioned its all a bit vague how this works outside of encounter mode and so some GM decision making is needed on the best approach

The card mechanic rather than "random" tables - l like this as it means it is simple for FFG to add more mutations, more diseases, more critical wounds, more whatever, quickly and easily without having to issue a new random table each time.

party card - yep, i can go with this. I used it effectively last week to pull a disparate group of players onto a sinlge course of action, which i could have done without the party card, but the carrot of the party card made it much easier.

trackers - nothing new, but its nice that FFG have provided some visual pleasing tools to make this kind of thing easier. A nice bonus

item cards/locations cards and other shinys - they don't make the game, but again are a nice bonus and we do certainly use them; the location cards especially, help in making each eocounter slightly unique and therefore entertaining.

that's it for now, but if i think of any other main bits, I'll add my comments

I'm pretty much in agreement with the above.

The dice mechanic is great, particularly if it is integrated/leveraged into narrative descriptions of what's putting dice into pool and reading results (curses, my armour fails me!). My quibble here is not mechanical but rather that the advice about using dice descriptively was put into GM book not Player book and players really need this advice.

Abstract ranges are my least favourite part but they're not a deal breaker. They emphasize "this isn't a table top wargame" but can still be a little wonky at times.

Actions integrated - spells, attacks, social actions, Perform a Stunt card all basically the same system (which it iself the skill system elaborated) - excellent!!!! Let's not have different subsystems for everything.

Use of "decks" rather than "tables" for randomness - Genius! Truly learning from boardgames and bringing it in to RPG without making RPG a boardgame. Rather than roll, look up, note, it's draw and put it by your sheet.

The "resource pools" of Fatigue/Stress etc. - I like. Don't like the counters so much (I mean the physical aspect of them) but each table can find its own counters/approach to tracking (e.g., I use more distinctive tokens). The way this can model arduous journeys, terrifying experiences etc. as well as wounds and harm is great.

The way tracking tokens is both spell duration and recovery time for actions etc., very nice. Players really can keep that pencil simply for making "roleplaying notes" not mechanical ones.

The design approach of having a "per session" cycle on some resources/abilities - a real time cycle saying "once per real unit of play you get to shine this way etc." is also excellent. A great balancing with simulation etc.

My quibbles are with editing in materials for the most part. There are a few specific things I wonder about (that ratcatcher's dog ability to negate a critical is pretty **** good!) but they are not mechanics rather specific cases/rules.

My other quibble is that location cards are small and the art on them though nice is in sepia tone that makes it not "pop" across a table.

Rob

To quote along time WFRP 1&2 player that I introduced the game to this last weekend - who I might add was very skeptical about 3e when it was first announced and all the articles were coming out for it.

"I like what they've done here. The cards help keep the rules at your finger tips, the initiative change is simple yet makes a major shift in play. Combat feels more realistic with the way criticals niggle you down and don't just outright kill you. It makes things more grueling and grim and less fatal and absolute. Plus it was hugely refreshing to play starting level characters that aren't blundering around in the dark. The game feels much more in line with the fiction. I think this is the most fun I've had in an rpg for a good while."

Yer, I really do think it is fun; fun and exciting, with the new expansions benig expertly aimed at adding a little bit each time to the game as a whole rather than just adding magic, or religion or "just" being an adventure.

And sometimes it is the little things... when I gave out the intoxicated condition for the first time (when the dwarf had a little too much thunder ale!) and the players all had a read of it and saw it's "mechanic" they thought it was one of the neatest ideas for representing drunkeness in a game htey had seen for a long time (although the players might have been quite intoxicated by that point too!?)

Oh, I like this topic already. My thoughts:

THE BOOKS

* The lack of a players guide is the single biggest thing holding this game back. Nobody is thinking of this game outside of the game session because players have NOTHIGN that they can take home. Hopefully these new books will help..now they just need a complete set of dice...

DICE:

* I absolutely love this mechanic of the game. No complaints.

CARDS:

* Career cards: unnecessary. These should just be written on the character sheet and designed as a static bonus.

* Talent cards: nice, but I hate the small size. why doesn't it say the number of recharge rounds here again (this should be made more clear..either exhaust or 4 recharge). I'd actually prefer them all to be exhaust and just written on the character sheet.

* Basic action cards: dont' bother with the cards. Just use the sheet that Universal Head came up with. There's no reason to have 7 cards floating around the table when a simple reference card would do the trick. This is the single biggest contributor to having all kinds of crap on the table.

* Advanced action cards: these are brilliant and work well with the stance. One ***** though: If it's not worth using one particular side of the card (dramatic flourish anyone?), then the card should have been redesigned to have TWO useful sides. Not one decent side and one worthless side.

SHEETS

* Party sheets (meh). I don't like the design. They shouldn't have tracking tokens, they should be on a tri-fold stand with paper-clip markers where everyone can see them. 5 players? Good luck seeign the party sheet in the midst of all the other crap on the table..much less being able to read what it's about. Party tension: interesting idea if you're playing with a bunch of autistic jerks who need parenting..otherwise this should work in reverse (i.e. the more that the party works together, the GM can give bonuses that way instead of "parenting" naughty players).

* Career Sheets - there's no reason to have these on the table after creation. Write your talent sockets on your character sheet. These shouldn't be on SHEETS, they should be in the book. PERIOD.

CHARACTER SHEET

* There should be Talent sockets on the character sheet.

* I don't like the character sheet..at all.

TRACKING TOKENS

* These are kind of a pain simply because they slide around unless you're in some kind of invalid hospital where the players NEVER reach for anything EVER on the table. We swapped them out to paperclips and/or weights.

* Action cards: It's nice to get beyond the D&Dism of once per encounter/daily/at-will.

STANCE

* The opposite of the word "reckless" is not "Conservative." Poor wording choice imho, but this is extreme nitpickiness. PRetty good mechanic and makes the cards make sense.

GM's TOOLKIT

* Nemesis cards: yea..not ever going to use this..got enough crap on the table already..and though I detest people saying that it's become too much like descent..this goes too far..even for me.

* GM's screen: should be horizontal/landscape format and have USEFUL information on it. Having a tracking meter at the bottom isn't as useful as having one at the TOP where you could just put a paperclip instead of wasting time manipulating chits.

INITIATIVE

* The freeform initiative is neat, but really not necessary. We've just houseruled that everyone still gets THEIR TIME to act instead of "welll, who wants to go next..anyone...anyone...anyone..Buelher...Beuhler..." Delay moves them down.

MONSTER LAYOUT STATBLOCK

* Why is deflection/defense listed next to agility in parentheses? Oh, no reason? Yea, poor design/layout.

WOUND CARDS
* Smart idea..for critical hits. Otherwise just let me mark it on the paper.

CONDITION CARDS
* Big pain in the butt to find in the heat of combat. This slows the game down. No solution except a summary sheet/card for players.

For as many gripes as you see above, the system works pretty dang well and my players and I like the mechanic..it's just that everything is so scattered about the table that, as the game owner, you're more concerned with inventory control and not spilling a coke on them, that you can't relax and just run the game..you ESPECIALLY don't want to bring this game to a convention (which runs very counter to helping the hobby grow).

I like they system..hate all the crap floating around.

jh

Emirikol said:

I agree that the biggest anoyance is the amount of stuff we have on the table. So... where did you find that sheet?

I can only find the summary of the rules pdf, but that doesn't have the basic cards.

It's on Gitzman's page:

www.sweetwatercakery.com/_jesse/WFRP3/WFRP3%20Resources/WFRP3/WFRP3%20Basic%20Action%20Card.PNG

It's a nice, small summary page. Way better than having all those dang cards floating around.

jh

many thanks for your replies one and all.

Many points raised are what i was thinking..

keep them coming....

Now here I was thinking I didn't need to weigh in 'cause Pumpkin and Valvorik had summed it up so nicely. Then I got to Emirikol's post I disagree with some of his gripes.

THE BOOKS: I agree that the forthcoming books are a HUGE boon, but the current game is certainly not a wreck without them. The core box comes a magic book you can send home with your apprentice, a divine power book to send home with your initiate, a GM book to oogle yourself and the basic system book for anybody else who's curious. Plus the WoM and SoF books are fun to peruse as well. True, they don't have the powers in them, but that doesn't make them any less entertaining or inspiring to read.

THE DICE: I love 'em, love 'em, love 'em. They provide tasty story-focused nudges to my players who previously couldn't (or wouldn't) narrate their way out of a paper bag. Plus, multistate task resolution FTW!

THE CARDS: The tiny career ability cards, meh. They're OK in context but yeah, they're unnecessary. I do, however, really like the Talent cards and the socketing mechanic. It's a bit metagame, but the system as a whole leans that way so it works for me. As for the Basic Action cards, my players like 'em. The bits of art (like on the Melee Strike card) add to the atmosphere. Plus they like to have a bunch of options to paw through. I can see how they might bug the game-space-impaired, but we don't have that issue. We tend to keep them stacked up in front of us like a deck and sort through them at need. The Advanced Action cards Brilliant! Especially the stance differences (Emirikol's issue with Dramatic Flourish notwithstanding).

THE SHEETS: As for the Party Sheets, I can see how they wouldn't fit the playstyle of some groups. I love 'em, personally. It gives the party a unifying ideal and something to pull their attention back to their stated purpose when things start to drift. In fact, the care and feeding of the Tension Meter and the Fortune Pool was one of the best parts of our last game. My players lobbied for the tension to be increased almost as often as they did the Fortune Pool. The way you can socket a spare Talent onto the sheet is nifty it's like having someone in your group mentoring the rest in their field of expertise. I also like having the Career Sheets on the table. I think it's atmospheric that everybody has a li'l representation of their archetype right in front of them during play I also have no issue with the character sheets. They're a bit small, but given the amount of widgets on the table during a game I think that's the only possible way.

TRACKING TOKENS: I can see how some don't like 'em. They're flimsy and get knocked around pretty easily, but like I said before we're not squeezed for space. I like the idea of doing things that way, but I may trade up to a better (read: heavier) solution if I ever run across something that grabs my fancy.

STANCE TRACK: Rockin'. I like the risk-management spin it puts on the dice pool.

GM STUFF: Meh. The screen is pretty from the outside and it lets me stack stuff out of sight - standees and such. The info is largely useless and inconvenient, but I still like having it on the table. The Nemesis Sheets… I like them conceptually but for long term tracking the tokens suck. I've switched to these li'l metal arrow-shaped bookmark clips I got at Barnes and Noble.

INITIATIVE: Coolest thing evar. My group loves the combo-possibilities it opens up and how it's soooooo much more supportive of the narrative, rather than imposing a boring, simulationist lockstep on combat. We've even imported it into other games.

WOUND CARDS: Like the man said, a smart idea..for critical hits. Otherwise I think they should be replaced by chits! ;P

CONDITION/MUTATION/DISEASE CARDS: Excellent. A pain to figure out how to store and access but once I got that down I wouldn't want to do them any other way.

So yeah, my take on it all is pretty positive. At the moment WFRP might very well be my favorite fantasy game. We're playing and enjoying gaming more using it than we have in a long time. It could be that it's shiny and new, but I think it's got legs. I'm on board.

Yep, I have to say I am coming down on CaffeineBoy's side of the fence when it comes to all the "crap" that comes with the game, we generally don't have a problem with the space or find that it gets in the way or slows things down.

For me as a GM being able to easily see, pretty much, how all the PCs are doing with regards to wounds, stress, conditions, etc etc without either

a) asking the player directly

b) asking for the character sheet, and trying to understand the player's scrawl (let's face it player's scrawl on character sheets is worse than doctors hand writing!)

c) keeping my own notes

is a great bonus, personally, i think the less people have to write down on a sheet the better, but thats just me.

one note on the character sheets, although we don't have them on the game during a session, and i agree that the character sheet should have some customisable talent slots along it's edge to save on space, for those that want to do it that way, i think it is still imperative they are on cards and for the simple reason that when new ones come along they get added into the batch and are "readily" available for everyone to choose from, look at, or use when randomly determining a new career. Having them just in books, as in the old edition means those careers never get looked at unless the player takes time to buy (yer right) or borrow the book in question.

basically, anything that may in 2nd edition have appeared on a random table in 2nd ed MUST appear on cards in 3rd ed, IMO.

To counter the point about one decent and one useless side. I disagree entirely. I like the fact that different cards work better in different stances. It means characters aren't just free to pick their stance and always perform well. It makes sense for certain actions to work better in one stance over another it means players have to be conscious of how they tackle a situation. It also gives added depth for players that want to have two sides to a character. The brash fighter who perhaps acts recklessly most of the time. But every now and then he gets dead serious and has his zen moment just before he enters a duel.

thank you one and all...

Speaking for me and 15 players around in differents WFRP3 games I'm mastering.

THE GOOD

• DICE : Love 'em ! Use 'em !
• ACTION CARD OTHER THAN BASIC CARDS : it's perfect ! You see all your unilimited powers ! mouahahaha !
• FATIGUE/STRESS TOKEN : love 'em ! Use 'em ! you may dry players without hurting them. Nice.
• SHARED INITIATIVE : my players love it because it fits roleplay... The first to react is able now to give instruction and let another one play before him.
• CONDITION CARDS : Really really useful for me as a GM. Now players NEVER EVER forget conditions.
• MUTATION, MISCAST, INSANITIES CARDS : man, it's like Souvenirs in The Old Word....
• WOUND CARD : actually my players love 'em and use them like HP... They give it back to the GM when they are wounded, except for critical of course (wich everybody love).... ... DEATH ? Not good if played RAW... You never kill something/one without stunning it before. For us : every wound under threshold is immediatly critical. There it dies.

THE BAD (not as good)

• (Sadly) PARTY SHEET : Love Tension Meter when Fear & despair comes in game (not to sanction players, Emirikol ), shared fortune pool, shared talent.
• TALENT CARD : it's ok because it fits the socket system. But only 2 of my player had bought more talents than sockets.
• TRIANGLE TOKEN : A nice idea to be able to track stuffs. BUT Why is there so many different kind of token by the way ? It's confusing.
• CAREER SHEET : not useful on the table, but it's nice to be able to add more and more without searching in different books.
• CHARACTER SHEET : we add some stuffs on it like TOTAL SOAK, TOTAL DEFENSE near Wound points.
• PROGRESS TRACKER : We NEED more example in Social Combat. But it's a real nice tool to use though in other situation (hidden or shown depending of situation... that's cool).

THE UGLY (not good at all)

• CAREER ABILITY CARD : Useless... M. Designer, why don't you have written it down on the CAREER sheet for god sake ?! We already write down racial abilities on character sheet, we could do that for 1 to 5 career abilities.
• BASIC CARDS : They totally ruin the table. It's now perfect since we use Gitzman's basic card sheet... something to share between players like party sheet, token and dices.
• GM SCREEN : Did anybody tested it ingame only once ? Screens are for gives you the basic rules, not the pages in the rulebook !!! Not to mention that lamelamelamelame dice symbol table that any player know in 2 minutes... So... The GM might know it too... Illustrations are re-re-re-used and the format is not as good as a real landscape... but that's okay it's not a plenty vertical A4.
• NEMESIS CARDS : A really good idea ... But there already is a Progress Tracker system. We could have written these "Event space" effects into adventures writes up.

UGLY TO COME : BESTIARY VAULT... more stuff behind the screen + adventure, conditions cards and progress tracker ? naaah... I really enjoy the adventure book format : 1 A4 page with 4 powers and 3 creatures.

• RACIAL GROUP CARD : A Racial Nemesis card ? uurgh...
• BESTIARY ACTION CARDS : more action cards to search ? no.

willmanx said:

The group I am in and the one I run both just have the cards in a stack (which can then easily be flipped from Conservative to Reckless). The basic actions do make the stack thicker, but they don't really get in the way.

Are most people spreading them out on the table? Of course they would take up a bunch of room if you did that, but that's not so much the game's fault as it is the player's. I've played games where the GM gave us a 4 page character sheet (with a lot of room for equipment and such). I wouldn't blame the game if I decided to print them single sided and then spread them out on the table.

willmanx said:

I couldn't disagree with you more here. I think the racial group card is one of the things people most look forward to for the product, and the current creature cards are much easier to work with than using the pages from the ToA.

I agree with most things Willmanx write even though I whine a lot about the tracking stuff. Its generally my biggest gripe with system because there is so much of it. This post has given me some ideas on how to reduce it though.

While I agree with people who love the dice system there is one thing thats bothering me about it. The number of dice. The amount is often somewhere around 15 dice per roll and deducing which successes are cancelled by what failures and banes and boons it will take just as long to figure out as if you were playing a D100 system with + for close range - for darkness + for skills and talents etc.... you get the idea. just a bit too long. But I don't have any ideas how to change it unless they make some dice that counts as two fortune/misfortune dice or two characteristic dice etc.

as for basic cards: I think you can easily do away with the perform a stunt card. its as useless as the quickcasting card they made. its just a reminder for something you can but the GM can rule without the use of the card. who needs a card to tell you you can do something? You can always do that (unless unconscious of course).

If you play on a regular basis you should be able to memorize the results of the basic melee attack and range attack negating the need for those as well. You really only need the defensive cards for tracking.

-L

Doc, the Weasel said:

Yep my beginner players used to spread basic cards through the table while experienced one shared 1 set of basic card, except for Defense cards because of the token tracking.

About Bestiary Vault, I really enjoy Tome of Adventure "Format", but I do agree it's a pain in the xxx to check in the book. That's why I had to buy the goddamn locked'n'heavy 100 mo pdf to print those on single sheets.

I highly disagree about the career ability cards. It allows you to put away the career card and just keep out the ability card. I do wish they would have put two sockets on the character sheet, but all we do is either lay out the two that are active, or tap the two that are active. It's really not hard at all to keep track of. The slots on the career card is a nifty idea and great for graphic layout, but not necessary.

We don't use the cardboard stand-ups, but we never used miniatures either. Our action is in our heads and imagination.

I also totally disagree with the action card complaint so vocal on these boards. So basically, people want to replace eight action cards with one big action card called a sheet of paper. My eight cards generally take up way less space at the table because they can be stacked in a pile, with the one or two I'm using at the time. The character sheet being smaller and more compact also makes space saving way easier. At most, my players have their character sheet, a stance meter, two talents, and 3-4 action cards laid out at a time. The rest are left in a deck they reference when they want it. This takes up just about as much room as an 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of paper. I don't know how everyone else sets up, but this seems to be no more than the standard gamer layout.

I also feel the cards facilitate gaming in two ways. 1, the group doesn't have to wait for someone to copy down their new ability and all those little hammer, triple hammer, line charts down on a sheet of paper. I'm sorry, but that feels more like homework than playing a game. It also, plain and simple, saves time I can spend gaming rather than copying down a bunch of cards onto paper. A printed card also has all the information clear, well defined, and instantly accessible.

2, If you also think about the reality of what you're talking about, a player will have to refer to a page spread of stats, find which particular ability he wants to use, roll dice, and make sure he is checking the right chart for each roll on his page of actions. As a player gains more actions, they will need new sheets. This means they will have 3-4 sheets for their character, having to cross reference through them to find which particular action they want to use. Not only (for them to lay them out completely) will take up more space, it will also take just as much time as skimming through a deck of actions (which IMO is actually faster). Finally, each action on the sheet will have to manage recharge. That means, instead of simply removing some chits, a player will have to sort through those pages, find each check mark, and erase one mark from each card. That is easy enough when you have 4 abilities, but it will be much more complex when you have twelve spread across a number of pages, on the back-side of pages, etc. Sorry, but that is a way worse scenario than just having a card with a few counters on it.

Also, Critical hits go back to the same nightmare. Do you really want to stop the action so you can read line by line what the effect will be? Or is it easier just to hand them a card? Same goes for miscasts, conditions, and insanities. How exactly will you write down +1 purple die? The card again, makes communication easier and more streamlined between player and GM. I only bring this up because the new, percentile chart system the hard-backs will be introducing for those who don't like the cards. All this railing on the great components that come with the game made me feel like it was necessary to communicate this very clearly.

Furthermore, I did go through a bout when I first started with players marking down wounds, until one player, as a joke, asked for Wound cards. So I gave him some. What we all came to realize, handing cards for wounds was WAAAY faster than even marking them down with pencil. It also made it easier to count wounds-lost than some scratchy hatch-marks on a page. We never debated are you conscious or not. It also gives me as a GM instant access to how wounded a player so I can know x amount of damage will put him down, but if I charge him with the Troll with Thunderous Blow, he's going to die! This is great and keeps everything honest, open, and on the table.

I agree the cardboard tokens are not the greatest. We use glass beads and other tools so we don't really have a problem with them at all. I still use the card chits for trackers and Character cards, etc.

Basically, I love all the components and new mechanics. It's about risk and reward which I absolutely love. It's not about what you can't do, it's what you can do, which is very different than most RPG's. I don't like card recharge, but that's a whole different thread. I even like the Nemesis cards, but I wish FFG would give us a more clearly defined role they should play. I don't use them all the time, but fine they can be very effective if used properly.

The best part I have to say though is the dice. But I don't think anyone would disagree with that.