They are not that different than Beastmen, yet, empire people think they are just a myth. Even if Skaven are shown to them [such as the events of EoN] then after some time, people will stop believing they exist.

I know it doesn't make sense but I don't really mind. I am the GM tho, and have to make give a believable explanation to the players.

Deus ex machina. It is what it is.

Even after the events in several GW novels the populace at large doesn't believe they exist as their own race, so it's pretty much a plot device to make them always read as 'mysterious'. I love the skaven, but even that's wearing thin on me.

Try to explain it like the folks who do believe in them are seen as like people who listen to Coast to Coast. They believe in UFOs, shadow people, etc, but are marginalized by the population at large for being silly (even though in this case it's true). After all, there are plenty of 'rational' explanations for the sightings: bad lighting, fear, mistaken for beastmen/mutants/chaos (although the hard part with beastmen in the current setting version (i.e. Warhammer for the past 8 years) is that they've codified the beastmen to pretty much goat heads only rather than the original beastmen who had all sorts of animal head types going for them), crazy person ramblings, 'made up' to save face, the populace don't WANT to believe the threat exists (ostrich syndrome), and so forth.

Try to get the players to see it from their characters' perspectives, in that even the characters have a hard time believing this is some sort of other race living in the sewers. I think it took Gotrek and Felix at least a few stories before they got over their initial 'what the heck are these' musings.

It might not be unusual for a scholar in the Empire to link the legendary "skaven" to rather common reports of a specific form of beastman, sometimes seen in cities. Sometimes artefacts might be attributed to these things, but it by no means does that indicate that they're skaven. But, the idea that an entire race of mutants is not only intelligent, but uses advanced technology and has a network of secret subterranean cities beneath the settlements of the Empire? Utterly absurd.

A real world analog might be gorillas. Sure, they exist. There are many common forms of related animals. Most people don't often see them, but they're out there. Imagine if a crew of miscreants and ne'er do-wells came out of the bowels of New York's subway system, claiming that there was an entire *city* of gorillas down there, and they had laser guns and teleporters and were clearly planning on taking over the world. Now imagine that a good chunk of high-ups in national governments *knew* about these gorillas, but actively worked with them, thinking they could control them and use them to further their own means. So they actively suppress more blatant evidence of this secret gorilla society. Now, going further, imagine if common mythology held that a super secret advanced gorilla society existed - the claims of anyone saying they're real would sound completely insane.

Makes sense to me.

Still, a ratman is not that much different that a goat-head, or a mutant. The empire people have no trouble believing that vampires suck blood, or burried people can get out of their graves. Why is a ratperson so hard to believe that it exists, that people intentionally forget they ever encountered one [as in the end of EoN]

It has nothing to do with the physical form. It has everything to do with the parallels with children's stories and intelligent, organized, beastmen. The former is incomprehensible to people of the Empire; the latter is entirely against their worldview. Beastmen, mutants - they're stupid, disorganized, monsters. That some creatures of Chaos could be intelligent, organized, and pervasive would be panic-inducing to the folk of the Empire.

Still, this doesn't jive with WFB in the least, as skaven armies aren't described as operating in the open, at least not since the time of Magnus.

plutonick said:

Indeed, a ratman is not that much different than a goat-head. So, what you saw was a beastman. Not some silly children's story like the Skaven. And everyone knows beastman are wild monsters, who stay deep in the woods. Not some technological advanced race that live in the sewers. After all, if they were that advanced, Mannfred Ratslayer never would have flushed them out of Middenheim like that, would he? Hahaha...

Now, there is no thing as Skaven. What you saw was just one of those beastmen with no horns, who got in the city by chance. And trust me, they won't have that luck again.

Skaven, no really...

Skaven are trited as a nother beastman form. They like any other beastman on mutant, so people in the Old World think that they are not a special race. They are the bad guys in myths and legend, there are there to scare children. Besides the do not what to be seen as a race by humans - it's easier for them to make there plans work. But Elves and Dwarfs know about them more then humans. Dwarf even have a Grudge about Skaven. Oh and Skaven use many potions to destroy body of the fallen in battle ones. For example Eishin assasins drink a special potion befor going in to action, this potion has a effect that melts there bodies if they are killed.

One more thing - people always think that they are the smartest and only a few of them are intellegent enough to hear what Dwarfs and Elves have to say. Commoners alway think that Skaven do not exist. And Nobles of teh Empire, the Emperor and other high-ranking persons in the Empire doe not what to couse panic in the country so they what to keep people in the believe that Skaven are a myth.

morskittar said:

What do you know about the subway Gorillas?

Narratively, think the reason for having skaven be a "myth" is that even in a fantasy world it allows kinds of stories in horror vein where "of course there's isn't one of those in the cellar, they don't exist" is the common response.

The issue is that you keep having that happen, and yes it becomes hard to believe. The Players know that the story of "ratmen" can well be more than a story.

I think you can use a few lines to explain it:

- psychologically there's a difference between the monster in the woods (kept out by walls) and the cultist in town and the monster in town. It's harder to believe the monster can get by in town. Also the idea of a "monster society" with "technology"? Even beastmen don't have that.

- odd sightings are dismissed as mutations and a kind of beastman.

- the skaven themselves go to great lengths to keep their secret, making that more important than any one venture - their assassins are cloaked etc., they will collapse tunnel on their own rather than permit discovery etc.

- it all works better if the warpstone-tainted creatures dissolve or otherwise alter on death to avoid giving evidence.

For dealing with player knowledge of skaven manifesting at table. A couple of ideas. You can sometimes be the story of ratmen be a lie, it's being put about by smugglers or cultists and Players who thought they were looking for ratmen are following a red herring. Otherwise, borrow a mechanism from Trail of Cthulhu or "key/aspect" based games and explain that "roleplaying your character, who doesn't believe in ratmen earns rewards" - a fortune die in party pool, conversely every time a PC starts talking about "the ratmen did it", party tension goes up because it's worrisome to have a delusional comrade.

I have made "dark elves" a similar, "story" in my version of old world. "Elves that look just like other ones but are evil psychopaths, one of them started war of beard, etc. etc. - oh yeah, that's like the biggest version ever of my evil twin did it , even the elves themselves don't talk about that nonsense." Again, the dark elves themselves whenever they are in old world work to perpetuate the idea anything they're doing is done by high elves.

Rob

Peacekeeper_b said:

Pshh. That old trope? No such thing.

There's many aspects of this whole skaven thing I dislike.

I enjoyed skaven as a secretive race, that hid from humans.

But now skavens have cities that (from sourcebooks) allmost rivals modern cities in population... so I can't see why the heck they want to keep them secret.

I know all about their constant infighting, but when you have towns with millions of skaven, there seems very little reason to keep it secret (let alone I cant see how they manage it...). What would humans/dwarves/elves do anyway?

I prefer skaven as having low population, who infight, but who due to being secretive can surprise the crap out of humans. And when they do launch attacks, it's by using all their cunning to achieve victory.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Ha! Awesome.

A lot of good stuff has been posted already, so I'll just add a few points and some opinion here, having recently read a fair bit of the 2nd edition Skaven book.

It seems that there are a lot of people who know or suspect there is such a thing as Skaven, but these people are reluctant, for various reasons, to speak openly about it. Officials don't want to alarm people and may have little reason to suspect that the Skaven are as widespread or as clever as they truly are. Those who know better may be intentionally trying to keep quiet in order not to send everyone into a terrible and unhelpful panic.

Often when skaven strike, they do so stealthily, so many of their smaller crimes are easier to pin on other humans (Boris the servant stole all the warpstone!, Petra killed her husband and ran away with the children!). How many people witness Skaven but think better than to admit so for fear of being laughed at or thought cursed or insaneor maybe they don't believe it themselves (did I really see that?). Soldiers coming back from war where Skaven showed up to fight assume they were a different breed of beastmen and leave it at that, even though the thought gnaws at the back of their battle-broken minds that those rat-soldiers looked a lot like the children's stories about Skaven.

The entire myth and rumor is frowned upon in any "serious" circles in part because it's highly unfashionable to discuss and has become something of a stigma subject by force of social norms. Though many people suspect there's truth to the rumors, it's easier for everyone cope with if we all pretend there's no problemthe world is dark and bleak and dangerous enough already, after all. Also, so many sightings are isolated, covered up, explained away by accusations of witchcraft, delusion, etc. that to many people there isn't really any actual, serious evidence out in the open to substantiate the fairy tales.

Finally, if a vast organized race of ratmen lived underground, wouldn't they have attacked the surface in some major and undeniable way already? This silly bit of reasoning may be enough to let the ignorant masses put the dread out of sight and out of mind. Except of course, the Skaven have attacked in major ways, it's just been forgotten, few survivors were left sane, or it was intentionally covered up by those who write the history books.

I run with most of what is said above - in Jeff's post - but don't forget: it is less that no one believes they exist - but also that the Skaven themselves have purged/burned/destroyed/stolen any human history or accounts or even artifacts that would show they DO all over the Empire.

So with that in mind - if in the era of the Warhammer world - you might have heard of these 'Skaven' but - there are no histories of battles with them in the University - no one has a 'skaven weapon' and in the case of this hearsay it really is easier to turn the other way so to speak - or even misremember what they saw. Seriously - no two witnesses to an event actually say the same thing - so with 'hard evidence' gone it is just a case of he said/she said.

I'd assume it's because so much of what you hear is totally unfounded superstition that you start dismissing things.

The local wizard eats babies? I'm sure (rolls eyes).

The old woman who runs the inn runs a witch coven. Sure.

Rat people under the cities. Whatever man.

I agree with much of what others have already posted here.

The reason that 'people don't believe in Skaven' is simply because GW are less worried about consistency than they are about what will be 'cool' at any given moment.

It becomes our problem to deal with this in game.

I prefer to keep the Skaven as a race or society that is not widely known about or understood, but not particularly because of any conspiracy (by paternalistic humans or scheming skaven). I run it like this:

People believe in beastly enemies and mutants, that come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Some of them look like goats, some dogs, some rats, etc. Whenever mutants are found (and some always are - including the rat-like ones), they are killed or driven into the wilds. Wherever you have large populations of humans, some of them will no doubt behave in a morally corrupt way, sadly, and are likely to display signs of mutation and chaos as a result. So it's not surprising if mutants are sometimes uncovered in cities. And yes, many of them have rat-like features, but enough mutants do not have rat-like features, so it's not obvious that there is actually a genetically stable race of rat-men.

People are also aware that there have been raids by and even small wars fought against mutants and beastmen on many occasions throughout the Empire's history. Sure, some of those beastmen may have looked like rats - but what's your point? One of the Emperor's is even popularly known as the 'Skaven Slayer' as a result of his wars against the mutants and the beastmen. Sure, probably some of them looked like rats, which is probably where his name comes from. Just because he fought a bunch of ratty beastmen and mutants, doesn't mean that he fought a distinct race of creatures however.

I personally downplay the steampunk technology of the skaven, and I keep the skaven population fairly low. Their cowardliness ensures that don't try to 'invade' the cities too often (and why would they want to when they can scavenge most of what they need in safety?). I figure that skaven politics is mostly internal. What is there to gain by launching an massive war against the humans? That you can't much more safely gain by stealing from them?

So when people say they don't believe in skaven, what I understand by that is that they don't believe in a grand rat-man conspiracy to take over the world. In part I think it's because they're right. The skaven mostly co-exist with the humans. They might talk big, but in practice they're not trying to take over the world - they're just trying to survive the internal struggles of a life as a skaven.

No doubt some of the stories put about by people who claim to have encountered the skaven are just drunks scared of the large rats they have seen. And if they really did see a rat-like mutant, then it's surely only a matter of time before a witch-hunter will find and kill the mutant. But the presence of one mutant, or even a group of them does not mean that there's a huge hidden empire just below the surface.

Edit: And so the logical conclusion from this is that the players are free to get as scared of a great skaven conspiracy as they like... But what can they do about it? Sure they can warn people, some of whom may even be concerned, but what evidence will they be able to collect? If they survive multiple encounters with the skaven they may be in the possession of several bodies, some weapons etc... Which is worrying to the authorities, but what will they have to suggest that this group of mutants is part of a bigger plot than any other? The most the players can likely hope to achieve is to have several powerful allies who are as concerned about the skaven as they are and who will support and cover their efforts to fight the skaven as a group of adventurers... But what more can be done? The city council may employ a sewer patrol, just as they employ a city patrol, but they're not about to go sending the whole army underground (any more than they are going to suddenly decide to wipe out all beastmen in the Empire, however nice that would be).

Ah Angelic Despot

it was a pleasure to read your post, that is how I exactly view it (or how I come to view it after your excellent article). People in the Old world would have no problem in beliving that there exist rat-like mutants, but a whole society and race called SKAVEN? No that is just wrong.

a most rewarding read.

Mal Reynolds said:

I must say I agre with You. And thanks Angelic Despot for a great post.

All this talk about Skaven is reminding me of Pinky and Brain Carton.

If you haven't seen those google them.

Brain is the master mind white lab mouse who plotted to take over the world every night. Pinky is Brain's crazy white lab mouse side kick who constantly screw up Brain's plan.

I wonder if the creator of this carton ever heard of Skaven...

Aw, thanks guys!

Since posting, I was thinking a bit more, and I think you can stretch it even further. People can even be pretty familiar with the name 'skaven': the word just doesn't mean as much to them as it does to us with our out-of-game knowledge. So people who have experience of fighting against them may well call them skaven, even if those who've never met them just call them beastmen. But even those who call them skaven mostly just mean 'rat-like beastmen' and remain unaware that the skaven are a distinct race / society from the other beastment / mutants in the old world.

So even if you have a city overrun by skaven, for example, it doesn't really change what people think. Yes, they know skaven (ie. rat-like beastmen) took over a city, but lots of other towns and cities have been attacked by other mutants and beastmen at various times too. Most people simply won't draw any particular distinction between a skaven invasion and a 'regular' beastman invasion.

The Empire is a big place and even though stories and information can travel, first-hand experience gained in one place / war is not often going to be compared (by one person) with first-hand experience in another place / in another skaven war. i.e. a veteran of a skaven attack on Talabheim is unlikely to also be present in Middenheim when that too is attacked by skaven (unless he/she is a PC!). And without fighting the same opponent on several different occasions, even a veteran is unlikely to get the chance to put together the information that would lead him to the conclusion that actually, these skaven attacks have a lot in common with each other , and not much in common with goat-men attacks.