I just got Descent, and am planning to get expansions for it as well (mostly because I can't stand having a game that has expansions, and not owning all of them - it's just the way I am). So I understand getting RtL is mandatory for faster games and a longer campaign. I believe the spawn cards that WoD and AoD add are just shuffled into the overlord deck, and the new weapons and heroes are compatible, so there are monsters from those expansions in the dungeons, and their traps and all can be used there as well - right?

That leaves no place for lieutenants and bosses from those two expansions though (unlike ToI, where new cards for RtL were introduced with the expansion itself)

Am I missing something, is FFG planning to add compatibility support with a card mini expansion or something, or am I missing the point, having merely glimpsed into the rules, and there is no problem in the first place?

Haslo, your concerns are right on. Each expansion assumes you dont have the previous expansion, which I think is silly. There should definitely be more crossover, but instead if you play an Alter quest, expect to see Alter props, but none others. Likewise with Well and Tomb. And then in RTL, which I really like, all the levels are pretty boring cuz they focus on Beastmen, Sorcers, and Skeletons, that came with vanilla Descent. All those great knick knacks you get in the other 3 boxes are almost completely ignored. They arent completely, there is the occasional chance to play w the new monsters as a spawn or minion or trap card, but for the most part, you are up against vanilla stuff. See this thread: http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=4&efcid=1&efidt=17579 , which details out many ways you can better incorporate the neat stuff and variety you bought the other expansions for.

For a multi-month campaign, I think this is almost mandatory, cuz do you really want your heroes battling the same 3 monsters over and over? Facing only pits and rubble, when you've got corruption, lava, fog, mud, ice, etc? With all the creative options available, it is a shame to play with such a limited scope of variety.

Still get it tho, just be prepared to use some of the suggestions above to diversify the otherwise bland dungeons with all the great stuff you get in the other expansions. That will make each dungeon unique to the heroes.

poobaloo said:

I believe this part is considerably misleading, if not exactly inaccurate.

Each (almost, there are one or two out of 40 that are exceptions) Level in RtL has alternate 'builds' of monsters that reflect either AoD or WoD. So the extra monsters are not at all ignored. However most of the terrain effects that are unique to those expansions are ignored.

RtL will use, regularly, from each of the older expansions;

- new monsters (both by spawn cards and as possible starting monster builds)

- new heroes and skills and equipment

- treachery cards

- other new OL cards

Some of the other parts like traps and terrain may come into play through added treachery cards, however those cards (with a few exceptions) are generally inefficient uses of treachery and unlikely to be selected.

Having said all that, Skeletons, Sorcers and Beastmen are still the most common monsters in the dungeons.

I have to agree with Corbon, I've never felt like my purchase of AoD or WoD was wasted in playing RtL. They have both added new things, especially for the Heroes.

They've added some things, yes, but they simply dont get used a lot.

You can pick some monsters as minions. You can spawn some cool things if you havent spent your threat on stuff more useful than spawns.

But when does Fog show up? (we're finally playing outdoors in the woods, yet not a single outdoor encounter has fog?) Corrupted tiles? Mud? (again, we're finally where there really should be mud) I've got a whole bag of dedicated corrupted room tiles (which are really quite cool, when they show up, and players wonder what the heck it is) that never get played unless you pick an Alter campaign. And then the bolt icon? the scything blades? The large pit? The dart field? Yeah you can get some of these if you waste your treachery, but there are more effective things to spend treachery on.

So many of the dungeons are so heavy in Sorcerers, Skeletons, and Beastmen, with Hellhounds as the stock minion, that it's repetitive. That's all I'm saying. I've never regretted buying Well or Altar, they're great! I have loved every expansion for the diversity it brings, to make every game involve something that hasnt been encountered for a long time. And the Well campaigns made for some challenging nights. In RTL as it ships, the dungeons dont do that, they're a basic set of monsters. I still highly recommend getting all the expansions for the diversity. But I sure would have liked to see some more cross interaction between them.

Like the outdoor encounters are nice, FFG put some focus on getting them to have one or two outdoor encounters that focus on each monster - and then if you dont have that expansion, you dont play with that card - that is a nice solution. But it seems the same attention was not put into the dungeons, which left me a bit disappointed that out of 40 random dungeon levels - 20 of them had the final boss be either a Skeleton, Beastman, or Sorcerer. That is not cool - Half of all the dungeons focus their leader on 3 units, when we have 25 monsters to play with. Who wants to go kill a Master Sorcerer, Skeleton, or Beastman, half of the time, for weeks on end?

At a minimum, there should be a "dont use if you dont have them" Location card that includes fog, and one that includes mud just like the encounter cards.

I'm not dissing the expansions, I like what they add - but I think RTL failed to incorporate all their greatness into it, with what would have simply been optional rules or setups. I would have liked to see more integration.

-mike

I completely agree with Mike's (poobaloo) last post, I just felt that the earlier post gave a more one sided impression than was fair.

It is particularly true that there are very few Named Masters from the expansions in RtL, and also true that some expansion monsters are very rare. But almost every dungeon does have a build that includes expansion monsters.

Also worth pointing out that although the mud tiles are not used in any outdoor encounters, several of the outdoor tiles have mud printed on the tile directly, so it is in use.

Having only bought my own set (complete) after RtL I've NEVER actually had Fog or Lava in a Descent game at this stage, which is sad (especially when a Mage's best starting skill in RtL is Fire Pact! )

As an example:

Dungeon 7, The Graveyard:

An ancient graveyard - once exposed to the sky, but now long-buried - lies before you. With a moan, skeletal hands erupt out of the ground, scrabbling blindly in the muddy earth.

(It even says "muddy")

It then shows a map including 8 encounter markers (?-mark tiles) that indicate patches of mud (gravestones) that a skeleton can erupt out of. So why would they not simply have used Mud tiles instead? It is not much a hindrance to the players, yet it makes for a more interesting tactical battle than the same old fight against skeletons and a master skeleton in a plain room that we faced in many other dungeons. Not only that, but it creates some conversation topics for the players, something to discuss - since you have to go look up mud tiles, and see that they slow down a hero moving thru them. It's not that Mud is all that great, it's just that we have the tiles for it, and it is not used in a single dungeon or encounter, even ones where you'd think it really belongs. Instead they use generic ?-mark tiles, cuz we all got those in vanilla Descent.

Minion choices? A) Skeletons and a Naga, B) Skeletons and Sorcerers, C) Skeletons and a Ferrox, and D) Skeletons and a Priest. That hardly counts as integration when you use a single monster and none of the other stuff.

Of course it's easy enough to modify them, but you risk offending the purists who like to stick to what's in the book.

Other examples:

* Why is there no Fog (Snow) in the Snowy Woods or Shadowy Copse?

* Why is there no Mud in the Marshy Valley?

* Why is there no Corruption in the Corrupted Forest?

It's like FFG wanted to include these features, but instead opted for just leaving them out for simplicity, leaving the cool terrain features completely unused.

-mike

Aww crap, that's a bit depressing

Ah well, I'll get them anyway. In my gaming group, we've played plenty of pen-and-paper RPGs, and I guess nobody will be offended if I adapt some encounters slightly - as long as the balance is right, which I'll have to work out at first. Thanks for that thread suggestion, I'll bookmark it!

Great post, I learned a whole lot - just have teh base game and am thinking of getting more?

Hendal said:

They are all worth it. There is a RtL specific expansion rumored to be in the works, and if FFG is smart it will include more option for using all the tokens from the various expansion.

Big Remy said:

Yeah, they are. For $35 you cant go wrong, for the amount of stuff you get in each expansion. I could not imagine playing vanilla Descent over and over cuz the basic monsters get old. And it is easy enough to alter the dungeons if you wish to incorporate all the knick knacks. If an RTL enhancement comes out, I'll probly be one of the first to order it!

It better, because we need at least 3 more Plots and 2 new Avatars. And I know it won't happen, but I want an add-on map piece with more cities and locations.

Big Remy said:

I'd rather see an alternative map, say the Cerridor Sea, than an extension to the existing map.

Slev said:

I could go with that as well. I just think it would be cool to have a larger area to roam. However if they do that, I want a second place that contains the Obelisk of Journeys otherwise razing Tamilir to win the game would get even easier if the Heroes are on the other side of the board. Or just get rid of that option all together, so that razing Tamilir doesn't result in the endgame.

A sort of reverse question with this... Is there any content in RtL that is compatible with the base game/expansions playing vanilla rules? I've been searching all over the place for an answer to this and haven't found one. What I mean is... Are the heroes, treasures, skills, etc. added in the RtL expansion formatted to be usable with regular, non-RtL campaign games? I'm not really interested in playing RtL style due to scheduling conflicts with my gaming group, but I'd love to add more options in the regular Descent games if there's more content to be had from the expansion.

Simple answer: not much.

You'll have some more floor sections.

Cards are either RtL specific or replace vanilla cards for RtL.

"too little stuff crossover" is the right term which describe what I'm looking for (THANX poobaloo, haslo and all of contributory). Something which really expand every expansion and Base Game (original quests, WoD quests, AoD, RtL ... future ToI), backward compatible - change playing game not only "add some new Mushroom to elixir". Even also owner only base game (with 1 of 3 expansions) has been allowed feel extension from purchase new expansion. Add much more variability to present adventures (quests) holding back playability.

Finally create World Map where lives (in villages, dungeons 'n' lairs or whole areas) Skeletons, Beasts, Dragons Shades, Golems, Faries and so on ... with many Quests, Rumors and Relic items .... Great RPG project composed on smaller expansions - maybe like RtL but I evaulate that this expansion came too soon. Maybe someone in FFG has plan about Great World with detailed map ... but who knows. Its very complicated starting now from beginig especially when 4th expansion was published.

Majority of all players wants to play Hack n Slash - short timed quests "Vanilla Descent" because there is problem meets all group members on one day. And if, than take them two days of playing only just 1 quest - if is realy hard. So Quest length is much important. Another problem I see in lifetime of group (players got job, working shift, wife ...) player's has fear begin, or start 15 pages long quests (even though could be interesting, on first look). Minority expects great RPG features. I cant allow that 1/2 of game components/material was only 1x use its really disadvantage.

Much more detailed Quests can't injure both camps ..... so I finish with words "more stuff crossover" should be in behoof.

Well one is for sure.

All props and tiles should be used, and optioned....

Like options were given for monsters in dungeons, the same options should be given for tiles and traps... but this should be done carefully not to unbalance the dungeons.

Maybe having a separate, well thought (for a change :-P ) expansion will make the RtL even more enjoable.

I bought RtL as my first expansion (actually it was a gift but it was #1 on my list) because I liked the new style of play better than the old one. We haven't been through all the game's options yet as is but I see that point coming and it really makes me crave more content. 6 Avatars? 3 Plots?

The plots seems the worst part. The overall story and world effects are going to be 1 of 3 overall things. We're probably going to keep grabbing the eternal darkness plot because it's more generic and allows for more variety in Overlord choices than just "And then i do this again" plot effects.

I wish the Lt. list had around 10 more choices and the avatar abilities to have about 30 - 50. I was kinda sad to take aside the avatar abilities I couldn't use and then found that out of the ones that remained only 3-5 of them were effects that changed the whole world or basic combat (off the top of my head, Lawlessness, Skeleton Snipers). Most were 1 use abilities or about a dozen final battle effects. I particularly didn't care for the +15 wounds or +1 armor and were more interested in the ones that added abilities or advantages.

I want to see more things like that. I want stuff like "Sorceror King - Give Sorceror's Sorcery + 2" or "Great Wyrm - Give Hell Hounds Burn." This makes the basic monsters seem more different based on who the overlord is. Sorceror King's skeleton boost was great and the first thing I every bought in game.

Perhaps the new set needs avatars that are expansions specific. The Kobold King? The Dark Elf Matriarch? The Blob (chaos beast)? These would be all great avatars and easily taken out for people who don't have the sets. Their way of marking expansion stuff was easy for my group to seperate and play without (the rumors and dungeon cards).

I'm glad to hear that they're working on another set. Can someone please point me toward the post hinting at that or a news feed or whatever?