Been having a happy chat with my wife and GM for the longest time this week, all about if you MA really comes into place as a summoner for anything besides paying to maintain a Bind. Here is a quick list of situations we argue on.

1. (Zeon in summoning is built up), In order to use any summoning ability you save up MA during a ritual, as if casting a normal spell. Or...

2. (Zeon is a well, just take a bucket per skill), if you use a summoning skill and have the zeon it can be instantly used regardless of MA (-100 but instant)

Basically we have been up over this for a while now and would like some rule clarifications.

Thinks known about summoning -

It is a mystic ability, but not sure if you need to use the MA to built Zeon for it. (Also if you have a disadvantage such as Oral Requirement if it comes into play as well)

Someone without "The Gift" can be a summoner, best cases are for the Paladin classes.(Unless you want to try and cast spells too)

Summoning is more based on gambles than normal magic, in other words a spell is almost always going to work. (Hence why the argument of MA, since spells are built up in combat but also almost always work the way you want them too.)

Thank you for you time, please help me stop this argument!

~Tigbun

It's answer number 2. You don't need to accumulate to use your skills, you just pay the cost.

As you say, summoning is kind of like gambling. You don't necessarily know the level of the creature you're trying to affect. If you had to accumulate, you wouldn't know how much zeon you need.

The summoning rules are not the magic rules. Magic says you need to accumulate. Summoning doesn't. Summoning works with skill tests (and you don't want to fail those, as per box XI)

Tricky question since it is a little bit undefined in the rules... but in this case I would handle it the following way:

Magic is the ability to concentrate magic, weave magic matrices and form a magic construct which has a specified effect in reality. In order to create a powerful effect you need to have all energy available before some effect can manifest itself, therefore you depend on your MA to gather enough magic energy.

Summoning has another flavour. You use knowledge and skill to open a door in reality through which you can call the entity you like to manifest. You don't need you magic energy at one specific time but you need a steady stream of energy, but the rate of energy you need is so, that every summoner can handle it by default, so MA isn't taken into account. Rituals usually took much longer than a few rounds - and I think part of the rituals involve drawing summoning circles, align the flow of magic energy and so on. You can say that if you try to summon some creature out of the blue, the heavy penalty occurs since you didn't take your time for slowly releasing energy to form a door, to align the forces involved, to use the proper materials etc.

So, I would rule that MA isn't used for summoning, but that the zeon is substracted at once from the summoners pool for book-keeping reasons. It's just easier to handle this way when playing the game

MA is important for Summoners for regaining their Zeon, upkeep their creatures and distribute Zeon points between their familiars and themselves. I think the merits targeting magic regeneration where made with summoners in mind. Also I heared that there will be an upcoming rule, that you can raise only your magic regeneration for half of the costs of raising your MA. I think this is a good (house) rule to use for summoners.

Also - in my game, summoning involves spoken words and gestures in every case. Merits and flaws dealing with these requirements are not take into account when dealing with summon abilities. Just for casting spells.

Just my point of view.

Efferdan said:

Well... those merits and flaws do require a character to have the gift to be taken.
And summoners do not not the gift, so.... by default, those just aren't made for summoners

Exarkfr said:

Hi Exarkfr (again )

I know - I'm just reffering to the question in the initial post. Also it's quite possible that a summoner also has The Gift (I have such a PC in the group I am running) and therefore it's a valid question to ask, if those merits apply for summoning or not.

On a side note: I you use support spells which need no high projection roll (i.e. because you can touch the target) mainly, a magician/summoner combo is quite powerful and playable since you don't need much DP for casting spells. The main drawback is, that you need the CP for The Gift and that you can't just raise your Magic Regeneration but need to raise your full Magic Accumulation

Efferdan said:

Oh, sure. But that would be houseruling.
Gesturless Casting and Unspoken Casting only mention "casting spells without reducing MA" (which you don't use for sommuning)

As there are no rules that impose making gestures or speaking to realise the ritual, there is no incentive to take Gesturless Casting and Unspoken Casting.
It's up to the GM and the summoner's player to determine how each ritual will be (that can vary with each creature).
Some creatures might be summoned using special components, others through chanting....
It can even vary based on the summoner's beliefs : those close to the Church might use prayers; more shamanistic guys might use dances and chants ; some may just need to concentrate and call upon the creature's help....

The system gives you so much freedom, that extending the use of some Advantages or Disadvantages might end up restricting you

Parrot Attack:

Yes since summoning does not require the gift, and it is not concidered 'magic' you dont need to accumilate. However, I would ask why your trying to summon mid combat lol. That just sounds like a bad idea....

Mostly because if you don't have a weapon that can rid yourself of supernatural beings between worlds, you might as well sit there for the five turns and get a decent roll to try and take care of that problem.

Slash slash! No it went right through! You need magical weapons to damage them....Start charging a banish.

Aura Extension is a really useful ki ability : for only 60 MK you deal more damage, have a sturdy weapon, and can affect energy

Exarkfr said:

True - but it also depends on the personal style of play, if you can have it. I.e. in my campaign you need a teacher to learn KI abilities. Also, there are SCs which haven't developed combat abilities. Like the Summoner-Magician played in my campagin...

Ah well, if the GM puts a lot of creatures the PCs can't even hit, that's another problem

Seriously :
- Aura Extension is truly powerful for any fighter type guy : +10 to damage, ability to parry energy, ability to affect some creatures (if you can see them )
- Mages have Enchant : Free Access spell, level 10-20
- Summoners, given some time, can banish or dominate the creature
- Mentalists... will find it hard

Yeah summoners can use banish in combat, but I would think that you would want to have your creatures summoned before hand so you dont have the issue of running into of summoning and then failing to control and having another creature added to the fight.

On that note that circumstance of the gm putting a creature against you that you cant hurt. you must have pissed off the gm some how lol.

Exarkfr said:

If they have access to the "Energy" psychic discipline, this should do the trick, or am I wrong?

You're right.

But it's not every mentalist who will take this discipline. And some might even have acces to only one discipline (1 point advantage), unlike mages who can easily access Free Access spells.
That, and the fact that you need to roll 280+ for Energy Discharge to affect immaterial beings.

Upcoming (though in Spanish) "Secrets of the Supernatural" might provide alternatives.

Sure.

But the question is, if it's bad that not every mentalist is able to affect immaterial beings. Since psychic powers can be used in an instant and over and over again, they are quite powerful on mundane beings. I think it's not bad if classes have some weakness. This leads to team work. Speaking of team work - a mage could easily also use Enchant to help their psychic friends

Exarkfr said:

Mentalists can use Shatter on supernatural creatures, if they need be. Or a lot of things from Sentience.

Banish is just about the most pointless skill ever - By the time you waste 5 rounds building up to get a good roll, your allies likely have already killed the creature with weapons/spells/powers, heh.

Swordwraith said:

I won't say so. Remember that Banish works on all creatures which are not "natural" or "natural / undead". Also you can get quite some boni to this attempt, perhaps even have an artifact or something helping you. And it might be easier to banish a high level entity (whose name you know) than to kill it. Hell, if you roll high enough you should even be able to bansih a shajad... I don't think you can kill it

So, I don't think this skill is useless. Also it depends on your style of play. Maybe you run an adventure, where there is this awfully powerful creature, but luckily there is a ritual to banish it... if you can survive long enough (where your friends come into the game)

Swordwraith said:

Shatter will not work if the creature is not material.

Sentience is useless against mindless beings.
And I'd be very careful trying to read the feelings of some wierd creature : "So, what is this nezuacuatil feeling ?"

Banishing can be useful against creatures with a lot of hit points (or damage resistance), good defense, or high damage output. Your friends buy you some time, and you send the thing back home. It will depend a lot on what your team can do, but is not useless.

I thing the "time spent on invocation" seems appropriate for the invocation itself, but for banish, and control/bind to a lesser degree, that have to be done usually in combat, I'd either lower the table by 2 levels or just not care about the table at all, another way is to add various "summoning modifiers", like +25 for a generic creature (like a generic fire elemental with no particular mindset or power), + 25 for having an important number intensities matching the creature's element in the vicinity ...

Control and Bind can be done in the same round as the Summoning is performed, and with the same modifier for preparation.

If you reduce the penalty to make Control easier in combat, you need a table for each skill / situation (or apply the worst modifier when several rolls are combined).
Something like :
- Summon, 1 round preparation = -50
- Control, 1 round preparation = +0
- Summon, then Control, 1 round preparation = -50 to both