Real quick questions:

If someone controls three bay of ices, does the person who wins initiative draw 1 card or 3 cards?

Three, one for each.

Good deal, that is what I thought.

Toqtamish said:

I may be wrong but I've always played it that the initiative winner draws 1 card regardless of the number of bays. I interpret the 'kneel' as a cost since it's followed up by a 'then' so once all bays have been knelt for the first draw, there won't be any further draws.

Please correct me if the 'kneel' shouldn't be interpreted as a cost.

Toqtamish said:

sjchua has the correct answer, but not the correct reason.

The text on Bay of Ice is "After a player wins initiative, that player kneels all cards named Bay of Ice, then draws a card."

So, the kneeling is not a cost because you do not kneel Bay of Ice "to" draw a card. (All costs are identified as the "X" in a phrase like "Do X to do Y"). However, because of the word "then" before the "draw a card," the kneeling part of the effect must be successful before you can draw the card. That means that all copies (the card does say "all cards") have to go from standing to kneeling before you can draw.

So, if there are 3 copies of Bay of Ice out, you resolve them one at a time. When you resolve #1, you kneel all 3 copies and draw a card. Then you move to resolve #2. All 3 copies are already knelt, so the "kneel all cards named Bay of Ice" part of the effect is not successful, so you cannot "then draw a card." Then you move to resolve #3, which looks the same as resolving #2.

So, because of the "kneel all, then draw" wording, plus the fact that you resolve each copy one at a time, if you have 3 copies of Bay of Ice out, the winner of initiative is only going to get 1 card.

yeesh, some of the rules in this game are getting too confusing. And too many rulings. I'm starting to see that as making it hard on new players.

Toqtamish said:

" (4.9) The word "then"
If a card has multiple effects, all effects on the
card are resolved, if possible, independently of
whether any other effects of the card are successful,
with the following important exception:

If a card uses the word "then," then the preceding
effect must have been resolved successfully
for the subsequent dependent effect to be
resolved.

Take for example the card You've Killed the
Wrong Dwarf (CORE L167):

"Any phase: Choose and kneel a non-
NOBLE character, Then, that character claims 1
power."

In this example, because of the use of the
word "then," claiming power on the character
is dependent upon that character first kneeling.
In other words, the card cannot be played on
an already-kneeling character to claim power
for that character. "

So not only is what I wrote above an application of this rule to the text on Bay of Ice, it is the same situation as the example they use in the FAQ to illustrate the rule. If not being able to play "You've Killed the Wrong Dwarf" on a character that is already kneeling just to get an extra power makes sense, not being able to draw a card for Bay of Ice #2 and #3 should make sense, too.

I understand that, but see it from the eyes of someone new. We aren't all so well versed and smart as you in GoT rules. My point stands, this game with its FAQ can be confusing for new comers. Of course it could be worse look at L5R and Me:CCG

Bah, if you think this game is bad try learning to play Vtes, Vampire the Eternal Struggal. That game has more rules and then cards that break the rules than any game. Still a great game but can be hard on new players.

This game is no so bad for rules. The rule book that comes with the set is weak but the FAQ helps.

Thats one of the few card games I have not tried, it does look quite complicated. Heresy was a very odd one too, over complicated and weird cards.

I agree this game is no where near as bad as some others, like the l5r and meccg I mentioned, I just know the FAQ can be a drawback for new players. Maybe a more comprehensive rulebook might help, but then that could cause the same issue with it seeming more daunting than some want to attempt.

Heh, is there a card game more complicated than this ?

Another one I never tried, but I wager Heresy Kingdom Come was more. What an odd ball game. And the cards were extra tall.

EDIT: 158 page rulebook ?! WTF. I am not even gonna try to read that.

Toqtamish said:

I think when people say "this game is confusing," they are usually saying "that particular interaction is not as intuitive as I want it to be."

In my experience, the questions that people ask the most are answered in the FAQ in one form or another, but they are not necessarily easy to find there. I mean, a new-commer would probably not think to look under "The word 'then'" to answer the question "if I have 2 copies of Bay of Ice, do I get to draw 2 cards?" The FAQ isn't a "look up" rules document - and that's what I think most people want/need.

It's the danger of having a game with such an open architecture. If rules and card interactions were more strictly codified, the game probably wouldn't be as much fun. If they were much less codified, it would be almost too chaotic to play.

You are right, thats exactly how I should have said, its not intuitive. Well put.