What would you like to see /fixed/ in the Hardbacks?

jh

I'll start with a couple easy ones:

Obviously the errata will be clarified and Jay noted there'd be more examples. How about other things we'd like to see?

• I'd like to see an easier reading format. It seems there were too many rules "hidden" in the fluff of the text (for example, more bolding (ability reference), italics (skill references).
• list of equipment in readable form. I know this new-fangled "paragraph" method seemed interesting at first, it's really not any fun to read

jh

A seamless system less dependent on cards and tokens.

PDFs that are not password protected. Though I suppose that isnt really the hardbacks issue.

Conversion rules for 1E to 3E and 2E to 3E.

I would be very glad to see

• more examples for social conflicts
• design guidelines for own action cards (from profi to player)
• combat with/on horse
• race design rules (i have my own for hobb... äh halflings)
• and a official Omni-Tool-Card creation software

Agreed with first poster.

The commonest being I would like to see rules more clearly organized. In particular the rules on chapters/acts/episodes and how they intersect with healing/rest/recovery.

I would like to see wizard and priest character creation notes integrated into character creation generally (e.g., get these advance skills acquired, these cards, attuned item at GM discretion etc.).

Similarly, much of wizard and priest mechanical stuff is identical (equilibrium management in particular). It does not need to be repeated where the only difference is the word "power" vs 'favour" and then the "fluff" (no knock against fluff, it's important actually to conceptualization of characters but it's not the rules). Consolidate those parts that are identical and then break out only what is different.

I would like to see "unique to rules" terms only used when meant as part of that rule and otherwise other words found when they come up: reckless, conservative, talent etc.

A minor nit-pick but the "promotional" phrasing can be cut at points to keep down word length (don't tell me the punchouts are "sturdy" or this is "handy" etc., I will judge - i've already bought game you don't need to sell me, either I know this or you're just annoying me if I think differently, save the ink for telling me usueful things).

Do not include "new rules" of course, keep with promise that book is just for better reference or those who prefer to access information in different way and not buying doesn't mean "missing" anything rules-wise.

Rob

I thought of another thing: The definition of an "encounter" and how it relates to rest/recovery/rally and time in general. Somehow this got missed in the GM's toolkit glossary.

• The FAQ for the Boxed set should include all these updates!

jh

That the books get scrapped, I feel that they are sorta a slap in the face to those of us that has actually supported the game so far. This step is just FFG acknowledging a small vocal and frankly whiny minority (yes I see the irony in my qq here), its like including female space marines in a death watch game, abomination!

The chits, tokens and cards are a vital part of the game and I am pretty sure that its going to be less fun without it, I also see that fewer people will buy the next box's since they can just wait a year, get a two books that are a collection of everything thats been put out over the last year, but cheaper and in an inferior format.

To that I actually hope that they scrap DH/RT/DW in a few years and convert them to this system, with no hardback support.

God, I'm almost trolling here, but its just how I feel about it.

UncleArkie said:

I was also thinking they should scrap the v3 books but for a different reason. Rather than trying to pull the "componentless" crowd into a game clearly designed around components, v3 should remain v3 and they should hire a separate team to publish WFRP Silver Edition, which would essentially be the cleanup of v2 that BI would've done eventually. Then everyone would be happy and FFG would have an even larger customer base.

UncleArkie said:

That'd be swell, destroy another fine game system. Of course, if they did do that I would save a lot of money and be done buying FFG products and have a great game with the excellent BI and early FFG stuff without all the bull-chit trappings.

You may see it as destroying a system, I say it saved it, reinvigorated it and took an approach that while done before had never been executed to this level of perfection, that you don't like it is fine, your entitled to.

But Patriot B your still the front man for the vocal whiny minority hiding behind the fact that your a service man (all respect to that), but it kinda makes it come off as anyone who disagrees with you are the enemy of all things good and right. Charlie Brooker of the guardian coined a term for this that I think fits well on your style of argument calling it a "Patrigot".

Sorry if that got a little personal, but here on the WFRP forums I find your posts slightly QQ'y and derailing in your rants about how things were better in the stone age of WFRP and that any progress and change is bad. But enough of this I have a feeling that my grumpiness is getting the better of me, I guess I'm just tired of people who whine.

At the top of the list is a thorough rewrite of all the chapters on actions, maneuvers, combat, etc. They need to start by explaining the real role of actions and maneuvers, and how they differ. The current Action = use a card, Maneuver = pick something from this list, just doesn't work. Especially using any skill as a maneuver.

• There need to be good guidelines on how to use skills as Actions,
• Maneuvers need to be explicitly limited to a supporting role, with guidelines on how they're limited,
• Rules need to be structured. No long prose with important rules hidden deep within paragraphs, but all rules explicitly outlined in boxes, so they can't be confused with fluff.
• More ideas and guidelines on how to run social combat or other non-combat encounters. There's a rough gem in there, but it needs a lot of polishing before it's really usable. Not every GM can do that himself.

That's is, really.

UncleArkie said:

Wow, that was very uncalled for.

First, and Im sorry to say this, the notion that 3E saved the game is purely opinion. But I do not want to debate that, as the debate over 3E and 2E is pretty pointless, as I did conceed a ways back that 3E is here, and it is here to stay.

And if you have read any of my recent postings on other threads in this set of forums, you would see that I support the new direction 3E is going with the hardback books, I am sorry you do not.

I have never hidden behind my military service and I never assume people are wrong is they disagree with me. In fact, all I feel is that they have a different opinion. And I never include personal attacks or assumptions about another poster. And if I ever did, or ever do, and it is brought to my attention, I am the first to apologize for the misunderstanding.

And you forget your previous post which was way more whiney and complainy then what I said. For the record, I am against DH being turned into a game similar to 3E's system for the same reason why you are against the hardback books. I would feel cheated that I spent all this money on a game and they go right ahead and change it in the middle of the releases, shortly after releasing previous "compatible" material and charging large sums for them.

As for the revisions of the hardbacks, I find the chits and cards distracting and not interesting and they turn me off from the game, but with a more streamlined "less card heavy" system, as will be in the hardback books, I am more likely to play (which means give FFG my money) this game. And for that, you should be grateful as those of us on the fence, or running away from the fence in the opposite direction, may now contribute to the money making of FFG and thus keep WFRP 3E in publication longer.

In general, UncleArkie, I enjoy your posts and share your emotional feeling toward female space marine threads, and am sorry if you think my posts detract from these forums.

And it isnt Patriot B, its peacekeeper_b. If your use of Patriot B is to draw comparison between me and the old poster Patriot from way back, then I am deeply insulted and you are indeed very rude. Otherwise, its just a error in repeating my name.

Sort of how I felt when they went from 2E to 3E shortly after releasing Career Compendium and Shadesof Empire.

In an attempt to stop a flame war from spreading ... I will point out that the original post requested 'rules clarifications' ie 'fixes' to the current system. Complete rewrites are more 'pie in the sky' type things.

I know I personally am looking forward to rules clarifications on:

• how magic (priestly or wizardly) healing interacts with long term care.
• more examples
• more in depth discussion on social interactions. Specifically I have trouble telling when in a social argument a 'round' has passed and in a 'zoomed in' social encounter scene its time to remove recharge tokens.

As a generic 'someday this would be super nice' I know myself and a number of players would like to see more action cards for non-combat skills. For example - our roadwarden's (who fights plenty well) favorite action card is 'Big City Bravado' which plays off of folklore. These add alot of flavor and options, and I'm sure would be welcomed.

shinma said:

You roll initiative with Fellowship and use that... But it's another of those rules that's hidden in an unexpected place, like many 3e rules... I think the hardback books are meant to clarify exactly this sort of thing. Most rules are actually in the books in one form or another - it's just finding them that's such a process. I don't intend to buy them, since they don't have any new stuff (I own all the existing supplements already) but I do think this will appeal more to players who have been wary of the system so far. I've certainly had a hard time rounding up players.

First off, sorry for getting your name wrong, I didn't mean to compare you to any other member. It also made me read through my posts, seems like I was having my yearly reactor meltdown there, sorry about that, I flamed and trolled. Lets see if I can behave like an adult instead, rough **** has been happening lately and the 2 year anniversary of my kid brothers death in afghanistan (blue on blue) is coming up and I let frustrations about that get to me, good thing I have a fantastic girl friend to set me straight, the patrigot comment was completely uncalled for (and for the record I generally in the dw/dh/rt forums enjoy your posts) and I actually don't think you behave like that. Now enough saying sorry I hope I got out there that I was out of line.

Now what would I like to see in the hard back, well.... They are happening, so I might as well make the best of them.

I think that as long as we don't get these pick up books once or twice a year that gathers up all the rules from a number of expansions in a cheaper format then I don't mind, it think it devaluates the worth of the other material and frankly FFG will get less of my money since I will probably wait for the books instead of picking up expansion box's when they come out, there are so many games that I buy that I have to try and save where I can and said wonderful female in my life is already looking at the piles of unread corebooks in our office with that "you should read and play those first luv" look on her face, but **** if I didn't order DW anyway. So thats my argument against them.

My argument for them is that a lot of players will buy these books cus they are easier to get into than a big box full of chits and you can get the pdf, store em on your reader, my iPad changed my gaming experience so much, having maps and books on that thing, I even got a brushes for it so I could draw and edit maps right on the spot on it and it works perfectly. But thats OT.

So really what I wanted to say, had I been all together there was that its a fine line that needs to be balanced, but lets see where it takes us, as long as they don't do away with the dice mechanics, those are brilliant and I love them and I'm sure you will too once you get used to them.

Kind Regards

A not so angry uncle Arkie.

EDIT: Also what I would really like even if I have been on the "but we have all the fluff we need" team I would love a Sigmars Heirs and Knights of the grail style source book, that would be sweet, maybe a 3 or 4 hundred pages hardback that covers the empire, kislev and bretonnia, just culture, locations, maps and so on... Umm big fold out maps, I hate the tiny little maps they have in the box's.

I just really want my players to be able to have a copy of the rules and how to advance their characters without risking losing my own stuff or having to photocopy stuff... Thank Slannesh's lubricated tentacles that this update is coming out..at least for my players.

jh

Emirikol said:

Yeah when I look at all the cards and chits that compile after several of the sets (plus the dice) it does get to the point that I recall how prone I am to lose things and misplace things.

So having a set with everything entombed in one book would suit my status of king of misplacements.

I also think that if the effects of the cards are jotted down on a character sheet it may reduce the chances of players using the same card-action over and over again round after round.

Also hoping for more organized rules format.

And while I understand the dice mechanics, if they are putting other "card draw" actions into randomized D100 charts, perhaps they could also have a side bar on how to "roll" combat and actions with normal dice (be it D100 or D6s with numbers). But that is not as important.

Hopefully another good slice of fluff and background with a new adventure.

More succinct and better organized rules is the first thing I'd like to see. It isn't that the rules are hard to understand, its the walls of text some are hidden in, in the Core book(s).

Cardlesw/chitless play, would be nice. I am not a huge fan of either

. My concern is, that the net result will be switching from a game of shuffling through cards, to a game of page flipping.

Not sure either is preferable to me.

In the end, I'll buy it if it meets the first criteria, as a better referance guide to the rules.

Schmee said:

I just finished making a demo character of every career in the game. I was tempted to put the career info and talent "summary" info them. The only section that would require more writing instead of page flipping would be when the character has a bunch of action cards. All the basic cards, wounds, conditions have already been summarized on "useful summary sheets" by others in this hobby and FFG, I think, had already announced they were going to organize them that way as well (as you don't need both sides on the basic cards).

If the average character only has 2-4 action cards and the talents, career and other basics are not scattered about, this becomes a lot more reasonable.

On a misplacement note, I lost a card more or less right away or it was never in the box, and FFG sent me a new one without even blinking overseas and everything.

UncleArkie said:

Thats very cool of them. But they would need a employee dedicated to mailing me new cards on a weekly basis.

I would appreciate a low-cost reference book for the card products because:

1. I and my group are prone to misplacing them and I doubt FFG would regularly forward me replacements.

2. I want to be able to quickly access information between and during games, a book makes this waaay easier to access all the info needed at a time.

3. Books are easier to store on a shelf than the cards and materials.

4. Less table clutter in-game for newer players or if there isn't a large play space available.

5. Monster cards and all the associated cards that need to go with them give me fits. Tracking the NPC/monsters is the devil.

That said, I feel these book references need to come out in tandem with the card version to keep player interest up. Waiting 6 months + for the 'reference' version of a product is going to suck the interest in said reference product out of most folks. They'll either make their own or move on well before then.

I really do love the system, just don't feel that the component-heavy version of it is necessary.

Peacekeeper_b said:

They do his name is Thad.

Does anyone know when the books/vaults are due out? I know that the preview indicated winter, I'm just curious if they're something I should be putting on my Christmas list or my Valentine's Day list?

I'd shoot for a New Years-ish present to be safe.