The rules are surprisingly vague about this. What happens to a player's hand when they're about to start their second encounter but don't have any cards to do it with? CE Online has players keep their cards until they must be thrown out, but what I don't know about is whether you have to show your hand.

I assume you're question involves the Offensive Player. And you're right. There should be something about it in the Resolution rules.

However, the "Drawing New Cards" section of the rulebook does address this.

It states that if during their turn they run out of encounter cards, their turn ends immediately if they need to play one. It provides examples, but this would also mean that you can't start a second enounter unless you already have one or more encounter cards in your hand.

Podtrooper said:

But you don't have to play one until the planning phase, no? So wouldn't you continue on, regrouping, launching, inviting allies, and so forth, until you had to play a card and couldn't, ending the turn? There is a possibility to draw a card during that time through the use of certain flares and powers so this is my interpretation of this scenario. Of course, people usually just say "I have no cards left" thus spoiling the surprise that the encounter will almost certainly end after allies are invited. They really shouldn't, however, because there are a lot of ways that the offense could end up with a card -- bad or good.

Specifically the rules state that at "The Start of your turn" if you do not have an Encounter card, you discard everything else (or play what can be played, then discard) and draw a new hand. The second encounter occurs much later in your turn, and therefore you do not get to take one if you didn't have an Encounter card at the start of the second encounter (or any time thereafter).

Toomai said:

To address your last question, the rules don't say you have to show your hand to prove you're out of encounter cards. I've always played you don't have to show because the rules specifically say in older versions of the game that you cannot show your hand to other players. If you're playing with someone you can't trust to play right, you could probably adjust this rule without ruining the game, but you might also want to question if you really want to be playing with such a person.

Adam said:

Wouldn't those cards be placed in the discard pile?
Isn't the discard pile face up and open knowledge to all players?

Page 13, left-hand column, addresses all of this. All three paragraphs of that section must be read all the way through.

As for the offense discarding in the example above, that's not how it happens. The player's turn ends, ships are returned to their owners, and play move on to the player on the left. Discarding won't be happening until the player needs new cards (either by becoming the defensive player in a future encounter or else by the game going all the way around the table again and back to the player in question).

The Warp said:

Except that you only have one "start of turn" and running out at any other point is different from running out during this phase.

I think part of the issue may be that on cards and aliens, Start Turn is listed as a phase, though it is not a phase in the rules (or phase summary).

During the Start Turn, an offensive main player would assess his or her hand to see if any Encounter cards remained, and if not, would discard (or play and then discard) anything else in hand and draw a new hand of 8 cards.

Now, after a successful first encounter, that player would then go into a second Regroup phase (and arguably not into another Start Turn phase, even if it were a phase). However, an offensive main player that has made a successful first encounter but had no encounter cards left at the the beginning of his second Regroup would have to end his turn immediately (per the rules).

It is possible, however, for an offensive main player to begin his initial turn (his Start Turn phase) with an encounter card, and not need to draw a new hand (he's raring to go, ready to attack with his 40, when BAM he is hit with the Plague Artifact. Now he must discard his only encounter card, and now, before his turn is even really going, he's done. The Plague can only be played during the Regroup phase, which as best I can tell is AFTER the Start Turn.

Now my head aches, and I can't think about this any more. Must stop.

The Warp said:

Actually, this part does not seem to be true in the FFG rules. There is nothing about the regroup phase or the running out of cards rules that says you check at the start of the second encounter. As far as I can tell, if the offensive player spends his absolute last card on the first encounter, he still gets a second encounter. He will still take a ship from the warp, he will still draw a destiny card, ask for allies, etc., but when he gets to the planning phase of the second encounter, if he hasn't picked up an encounter card somehow, the encounter will abort. Alternatively, the offense could just pick up a new tech.

I wonder if this change is intentional. It seems to work OK for the most part. It's not a big deal that the offense can pick up an extra ship when he wouldn't be allowed to under the old rules. On the occasion when you spend your last encounter card on the first encounter, you have a choice of "reward" to take of either a new tech or a free ship from the warp. On the other hand, working out most of an encounter that can't actually resolve can be a little clumsy in practice.

Huh, sorry to get on a tangent, but I didn't even realize Plague is now limited to Regroup phase. I wonder why that is. In the few games I've played so far, we just used it at any time like in the original with no problems. That'll take some getting used to because I never really read the cards before using them except to look at the name unless it's a flare or tech.

Chipacabra said:

Page 7: "Should the offense run out of encounter cards later on, his or her turn ends."

I think that covers it.

Allowing a cardless offense to set up the 2nd encounter, including allies, etc., would just result in moving a lot of ships around for no reason. 99% of the time the ships will just go back to bases with no fight. I'm sure this can't be the intended rule. It would really drag the game down to a crawl, for no added gameplay value.

Rubric said:

Doesn't it also add "when he or she has to play one"? Plus, there are several ways that you could get new cards: Mutant, tech, flares, etc.

You cut out the phrase 'See “Drawing New Cards” on page 13. Page 13 says the offense's turn ends if he runs out of cards and needs to play one.

Chipacabra said:

Right, Page 7 says end your turn if you run out of cards "later". Page 13 says end if you need to play a card and can't. One could argue that Page 7 implies there are multiple points where your turn might end, and Page 13 is just one of those examples. At any rate, that argument is not necessary because my point about "it would suck if that's the rule" still stands.

I interpret "later" to mean the end of your first encounter . I realize its a fairly liberal interpretation, but it's the way the game works in other editions and on line, and I'm sure it's correct.

Actually, if you run out of cards as offense at a certain point in the encounter due to Mutant's power online, the game just goes buggy more often than not and offensive ships and all allies are removed from the game, if I remember correctly, so don't go by how the online game treats it.

I seem to remember the Eon rule being the same as FFG's. Been over a year since I've played it though.

Adam said:

I rarely play on line. I was just going by what the OP said. The online game does NOT allow you to begin your second encounter if you have no cards. Neither did any previous edition.

Trying to interpret the FFG rule to mean that you're allowed to set up ships and invite allies when you have NO CARDS seems crazy to me. Yes, it could have been written in more direct language, but come on....

Just to be more of a pest, you can sometimes start a second encounter online when you did not have encounter cards at the start of the encounter. It is a bug that the design team has decided not to fix and just call it the "Cosmic Lottery."

I just had it happen about 45 seconds ago. And, yes, I'm annoyed ...

Back to the original topic: sorry, but I don't see where it's "vague" or unclear in any way. Pages 7 and 13 pretty much cover any possibility I can think of.

Rubric said:

Honestly, I can't read it any way EXCEPT that you get a partial 2nd encounter, up until the time you have to play a card. The only reason to believe that your turn ends before the regroup phase is that other editions worked like that. But when you're working out what the rules are now you don't get to mix and match.

Page 13 COULD have said something like 'if the offensive player has no encounter cards at any time during the encounter up to the point where he must play one during planning, his turn ends...' but it doesn't. It says there are two conditions to end the offensive player's turn: 1) He has no encounter card and 2) he has to play an encounter card. I'm willing to believe that's not what the rule is SUPPOSED to be, but until and if there's an errata that's what the rule is.

I don't have the rulebook by me to check any of this for myself, but if that is indeed the wording, I agree with you. There are reasons to let the encounter go on. Lots of aliens and flares could lead to gaining cards. It could also be paving the way for aliens like Doppleganger who aren't supposed to start the encounter with cards.

That said, I also think it's probably not what it's supposed to be because while there are a lot of exceptions... they're just that, exceptions. Most of the time you'll be going through the motions for nothing but a waste of time. But since there could be a logical explanation for it, we can't just offhandedly dismiss the rule's wording.

Of course, Cosmic Encounter is probably the most house-ruled game ever, so I'm sure most won't play it out this way anyway. It doesn't matter too much.

I thought it was odd at first too, many years of playing if you don't have that challenge card your second challenge doesn't happen. Turn over, period. But upon reading the FFG version we decided to give it a go and after a month of playing it that way I can say that I actually like it. There are often times when a power or flare allows me to gain a card or trade hands or something spiffy like that and I basically set up for a hail mary pass and pull off a second challenge. If I don't have a challenge card and I don't see a way of getting one I'll end my turn or go for a tech. But if Philanthropist is in the game somewhere I'm hanging in just in case.

Designer Kevin Wilson closed this debate over on BGG saying that you are not supposed to get "partial" second encounters if you have no cards at the end of your first encounter.

Of course, play however you want, but if there were any doubts about how it's supposed to be played, there's your answer.

Adam said:

Huh. Guess the rules were written incorrectly, then. Can't wait for errata/FAQ.

Interesting, still some holes in the process though. if you lose your last challenge card after you start your second turn, does the turn end then or do you get to continue and use a flare or power that can possibly gain you a challenge card before the moment "cards are needed to be played"

I also figured they allowed the "partial second turn" to strengthen tech. You may not be able to do another challenge but you could go for a tech card. Something we've noted that people seldom do in lieu of that tempting second challenge and a chance of a base.

I'm waiting somewhat patiently for that errata/faq to answer of some of these things as well.

All in all I'm happy we've had as few questions as we have had though. They really did a good job to work out so many kinks that a game as complicated as CE can get.