Lightbringer said:

I tend to go a step further, acknowledging that the 40k universe is one of ancient lies told for reasons long-forgotten, constantly-revised histories, fundamental contradictions, half-truths, misconceptions and strongly-held beliefs.

That in mind, no published is invalid... but it isn't necessarily true, either.

I agree with you on this one 100% N0-1_H3R3 (by the way I hate typing your name! But I love ya mate and the work you do.)

Nothing published is invalid, it just might not be true either. I did the same thing with White Wolf's OWOD; every clanbook might have been true or it might not have been. With Shadowrun's Storyline; in a world where the Corporations rule do you honestly think all the truth hits the streets unmodded? And I do it in 40k; The Imperium of Man, nay the residents of this cold war torn Galaxy do not always deal in truths, but rather in half truths, shaded truths, and less than truths.

Canonically Retconned? Or truths the Imperium does not want known? That is for the GM to decide in their own interpretation of the materials, based on which and what they favored and why. Games Workshop stands on the side of the line marked Canonically Retconned; that's fine I am on the other side of that line. Does that make my game canon? Not for anyone but me and my gamers.

My own current meta plot revolves around the things you are yourself asking about, and indeed I have my copy of Lost and the Damned on my desk and one on pdf open as I have been working on how to handle the resurrection of the Emperor. Writing a huge notebook worth of notes on who will fal where, as the next wave of war tears the Galaxy, I have plans for a very 40k twist on the Emperor. No easy answers, or I win buttons exist in this universe. Including HIS resurrection.

Use what you want from the lore, formulate a story that will enrapture your players' minds; have a good game that you and they enjoy. Thats all that matters.

Alexis

*smiles*

Peacekeeper_b said:

I know, i wanted my players to have a ~Groan~ moment when they found out what had happened.Of course, whether its true or not...

(and yes quite a few in my games have sided with the Tau as well, for the Greater Good and all that..)

tundra said:

Well, Squats have been wiped from the setting, given that Games Workshop wrote them out by having one of the Tyranid Hive Fleets go straight through their area of space, and had the Squats return there to try to fight them off, only for them to all be eaten by the Hive. That's written in several places, most specifically in the opening part of the Inquisition War, but yea, the Squats are gone now, and they have said they won't be coming back. Games Workshop also had the Imperium kill off the Zoats, since they were foul xenos that they believed were still allied with the Tyranids, regardless of what they said.

The Inquisitor skirmish game mentioned the Cult of the Star Child, and said that Inquisitors follow up any sign of this cult and kill everyone involved with them, due to the sheer threat to the Imperium they represented. So, whilst they might well still exist, having the Inquisition hunting them down whenever possible, and being branded heretics and traitors, generally won't do much for their survivability.

Since I was asked...

Edit: Didn't realise at the time there was a second page. Only responded to the first.

tundra said >>>

...my question is "have they really be retconned?"...

The answer is a question: Do you want them to be retconned. Just as with many things when it comes to interpreting the 40k universe, it really depends on how you want to see things. Sure, you're going to get people telling you "what is,' but what they're saying is "what it is to me." Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there you have it.

Is there scope for the Sensei etc. Yes. It's as simple as that. You might want to change the specific flavour of the Sensei as the whole "Jedi" thing is a bit more overt but... Yeah, I personally like the idea of Sensei, the Illuminati, and the Star Child (especially the last two).

Also, one thing to remember is that if you put 10 fans of the 40k universe in a room and ask them 5 questions, you're going to get 22 separate answers and possibilities that lead on to a whole lot of other questions.

Lightbringer said >>>

Personally I always liked the Sensei, but I suspect writers are wary of directly addressing such a potentially setting-shattering concept.

Would it really be "setting-shattering?" The whole point of the setting is that it is broadly static. When you begin to move the story forwards things tend to break, e.g the War in Heaven, unless you supply a hefty dose of suspension of disbelief. Again, if that works for you then it's all good.

Also, does the niche of the game invalidate the setting information?

Lightbringer said >>>

In DH, (Radical's Handbook) the recently possessed, while distinctive, have no such stellar insight into the wiles of Daemons.

Which just goes to show that it's another interpretation of the 40k setting. With that said, the original materials didn't really go into detail at the nature of the "clear vision" that came with illumination, which always seemed like a missed opportunity to me.

Lightbringer said >>>

I always thought that the Inquisition aren't actually the right Imperial organisation to be hunting these guys: it always seemed to me that the Adeptus Custodes would be a better fit. The Custodes presumably would be privy to many of the Emperor's pre-Heresy secrets, including the existence of his family and descendants.

Well, in the original materials it was the Ordo Malleus who were searching for the Sensei since they were "dangerous immortal heretics" that could potentially usurp the popular image of the Emperor. That and they could be reduced down to "negative psychic energy" which was a great "daemon killing" weapon ala psycannon. No knowledge about their lineage was required.

Oh, and the Illuminati were not all "formerly possessed Inquisitors," even though it is likely that the Inquisition and the Ordo Malleus did contain Illuminati.

tundra said >>>

i have always been interested in the idea that there were "demons" (forgive the analogy) for the emperor who were able to counter the seething mass of the chaos demonic legions...

The idea of the "Emperor's Daemons" is one that has been kicking around... forever. The last person that I recall to give them any serious attention was Brusilov over on Portent, though they might have been 'ported over to Warseer if you want to try and search for them.

On my own behalf I tend to think of them in a less "peaches and light" fashion, or just try and replicate the idea of Order and Chaos as espoused by Moorcock. Thus for me the "Emperor" is a tripartite "being;" a trinity. He is:

1. The Corpse. Dessicated tissue bound within the Golden Throne that traps the fragmenting many mind of the Shaman Synergy. Soulless, this entity must create a "pseudo-soul' from the souls of the Sacrifice so that it can empower the Astronomican and empower the Astrotelepaths through Soul Binding. (I'm not a great fan of the idea that amongst all their other talents, Marines get buffed even more with astrotelepathy... for free!)
2. The Child. The soul and "keystone" mind of the Emperor that fled into the "harmonious" sections of the warp after his mortal wounding by Horus. The nascent new New Man, awaiting rebirth as a physical messiah that may once again lead humanity.
3. The Twin. A dark entity created in the warp by the collective misworship of "the Emperor" advocated by the Adeptus Ministorum. This is an entity of revenge and punishment, harsh judgement and the destruction of the enemy at all costs. It is the Dark Twin and Hammer of Chaos; the end of humanity enraptured by the Imperium of Mankind.

Of course, in this scenario the Sensei are not all "peaches and light." I don't see their psychic invisibility as having anything to do with being naturally in touch with the hippy warp. They are merely "clerics" of the Star Child, with they Grey Sensei being "clerics" of Chaos or, even, The Twin.

It reminds me, though, that I really need to add them to my psyker fan supplement (for another system).

tundra said >>>

if i remember right luddite (he who should be honoured) once suggested that the imperium is heading to a renaissance... i have to agree... it would be very interesting to see whether this happens and if in only my mind the sensei are doing their bit to bring the imperium closer to a unified regime...

I'm sure that Luddite would be amused by that comment.

I guess it all depends on how you like to see the Imperium operating. For example, I have always felt more powerfully drawn to the Late Republic and Early Imperial Rome for an interpretation of the Imperium, feeling that some elements of medieval Europe can be added as required rather than used as a stick to beat you on the head with. (YMMV as always!) When I think of the general state of the Imperium, it has more to do with the later medieval period than the earlier so... Meh, again YMMV. The 40k universe is what you make of it. Just don't expect other people to agree with you.

tundra said >>>

the great crusade has ended... perhaps there should be another with the sensei at its head??? discuss...

Perhaps one Sensei might even become the avatar, the daimon, of the Star Child-as-new New Man? After all, there can only be one...

Peacekeeper_b said >>>

Im sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, but I tried reading the Inquisition War trilogy and got a book and a half into it when I realized that all Ian Watson had done was take a decent sci-fi setting and fill with with crap and bad writing.

I'm sure that you can find many people who find much of the writing of GW to be pretty full with "crap and bad writing." Indeed, I sometimes feel that anything that Alan Merrett is involved in is pretty lame ("Too much Merrett, very little merit..."). Anything to do with the "Imperial Webway," the "War in Heaven" (especially the timeline) and... some other stuff... should be burned at the stake and its ashes catapulted into a star that is about to become supernova in the hopes that they shall pass from the understanding of sapient beings.

Probably Xenology, too.

Of course, that might be over-stating things to make a point. Just don't mention Chaos Child!

Kage

Lightbringer said:

Zoats have also been hinted at (last I saw was in the Tau Codex), but I think they are closer to a proper retcon, as I think some of the creators really wish they had never featured at all and do want to say "No, never happened." Frankly, they were a bit rubbish, and the models were awful. Their main redeeming feature was a one line reference to "Zoatabix" which appeared in the rulebook, and is totally out of keeping on how GW want to represent their world now.

As Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and soon to be Death Watch mature as RPG's in their own right they do sometimes lend themselves to things which in passing comment in a bit of fluff, could become major or minor aspects of an adventure that add that little more colour to the setting. It is important to remember that a lot of things in the 40K table top game get killed off for a number of reasons-

They dont sell enough miniatures to support mass production, suit the current TT combat rules system or maybe they've simply hit an evolutionary dead end as far as the writers go in terms of developing them further as an army list. The former and the latter are two very important bits of 40K history that shapes it into the current game system it is now, compared to when I starting fiddling around with WH40k and WH-Fantasy armies around 1992-ish, they are vastly different to what they are now. That is a good thing in that it keeps the whole setting moving along with some new things, it creates money for the company and new things attract new players, challenge older players... its also horrifically expensive, sometimes alienating and I can't be arsed doing it all over again. I keep a passing pulse on the material, but thats about it, I don't play the tabletop anymore.

However, as Roleplayers. The above points are completely irrelevant to a roleplaying game, because roleplaying games by their nature can extend over any time period and gratuitously take and discard what we want as a GM to create our adventures into something people will enjoy playing and being a part of. If you like it and you think your players will like it, then there really is nothing to stop us using 'Rule Zero' to just do what the hell you want as long as you're consistant about it.

The only way I would let the Sensei back into the fluff is to remove them as the "Emperor's Sons" and just have them be his "spiritual" sons, in the effect that they are powerful psykers who believe they gain their power from him.

The 40K universe has room for the Zoats to return. Quite simply I can actually buy them being "used" by the nids as a slave race and eventually fleeing. Perhaps something in their DNA prevents nids from converting them into "healthy" or "usable" bio-mass but thier psychic powers are similar enough to the "Hive Mind" that the nids are confused as to who or what zoats really are and so used them as advance scouts or infiltrators to recon out future targets.

Now when they arrive in the Imperium they do a very silver surfer thing and lead their swarm to their meal (perhaps the squats). Early encounters with the Imperium have them as guards, shock troops and so forth (a la Ian Watson's Space Marines) and then they try to contact the Imperium and help them fight the nids (The Battle of Zo-blah blah-At Blah Blah) and eventually they stand up the tyranids and get eaten themselves.

Of course a few survive, escape and find refuge somewhere. Again, perhaps amongst the Tau.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Which, incidentally, is one of the reasons that I term them to be "clerics"—there is a spiritual relationship. Of course, I don't have a problem with them being immortal biological descendants either, but I don't like the "peaches and light" approaches to them. I equally don't have a problem with them being mortal either, and frequently switch from one to the other as my preferences change. (Normally because "immortality" ala daemon princes is a really good carrot and means that you would be talking about lineages and not individuals... )

On the other hand, I personally dislike the idea that the Primarchs are the Emperor's "sons" in anything but name regardless of whether he used his own genetic material or not. That way just normally ends up leading down the "big is 'ard" road and, of course, the reverse: "'hard is big," hence the massive swords, guns, etc.

Kage

Interesting thread. just my thoughts:

1. Senseis could work but as a toned-down mortal descendant of some kind in my opinion. or some other radical inqusitor crack-pot theory.

2. Always liked squats. done in the right way they could work. like the B) option lightbringer suggested. lots of Rogue Trader potential.

Need to read up on Senseis and the star child. never read the Inquisition War.

As I understand it, the Squats were essentially removed because 40k was moving away from being "fantasy in space." So Space Dwarves were no longer needed.

Oddly enough, I think the Adeptus Mechanicus already do a pretty good job of being "space dwarves." They're basically human, but insular, obsessed with hording (knowledge instead of gold), dwell in giant fortress/forges, and are extremely conservative despite being the custodians of technological know-how.

A lot of the Sensei material seems a little lame. They seem a little "Mary Sue" to borrow a term from fanfiction critiques. The Star Child idea works really well as a possible-but-unlikely hopeful outcome to the 40k storyline, much like the Eldar God of Death and so forth. Having those adds depth to the grim darkness, because they show a tiny light at the end of the tunnel...but don't make it at all clear that the light isn't actually just a Necron Gauss Rifle. Also because the both the Star Child and the Eldar Death God are reminiscent of the Myths of Ragnarock, with the old Gods dying in a massive all-in battle between the whole of the Cosmos, with one lonely god surviving to guide the new world as it emerges from the ashes.

Hodgepodge said:

Then they have failed, since it is most securely "fantasy in space."

Well, YMMV but there we go.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

I think it's a matter of degrees and distinction; Rogue Trader/1st Edition was essentially Warhammer in Space, later editions are no less fantasy, but they're more fantasy on its own terms rather than just being Warhammer with starships and bigger guns. There is, afterall, more than one shape fantasy can take.

Indeed. The more things change the more they stay the same and that "moving away from fantasy in space" is not what has been done, even if it has distilled its own interpretation of "fantasy in space," which is, well, errr... Not just purely "Warhammer in Space," which it wasn't quite anyway.

Regardless, I'm often amused that if you remove the technological trappings and replace it with the bog-standard Tolkien-esque fantasy, the setting often makes more sense than if you try and kid yourself that it is "science fiction/fantasy" (as people often describe it). Of course, as always, YMMV but it will ever be "space fantasy" to me and, if it is possible, more so now than it was in the past.

Kage

I agree with Lightbringer. I also caught these references to the squats & zoats. I LOVE finding little gems like these in the writing. They make us old-timers feel like we're in on a private joke without "upsetting" the overall setting. As a matter of fact, I have a zoat miniature that I have considered using in a genestealer army. Just another vanguard organism... In any case, my attitude is that if you like any of this "outdated" stuff, work it in to your game. Why not?

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

Quite. And it seems to be an attitude shared by many at GW. Look at the new Jokaero miniature - the first ever, since the race was created back in '88. "Easter eggs" "shout outs""in-jokes" referring to older canon routinely crop up in new GW (and FFG) material, often slightly adjusted or pushed in a new direction; long may that trend continue.

On that basis, I reckon we'll see the squats return one day...in some form or another. The Demiurg can be read as an attempt to do just that. And we'll probably see the Sensei/Grey Sensei, too, though perhaps in some totally unexpected guise. I was thinking the other day how Black Crusade would actually be the perfect opportunity to explore that concept, as you're effectively playing anti-Imperial renegades anyway.

Personally I like a nice mix of old and new...respectful updates of old canon and lots of interesting new stuff too. Innovate, reconcile, entertain.

Hodgepodge said:

From what I heard it was more that the creators regretted what they had turned them into (feeling they had not done the dwarf archetype justice in a 40k way) and couldn't work out how to fix them. Eventually they just gave up and had the tyranids eat them. They wanted Space Dwarves, but couldn't get them to work (and as mentioned we have seen the more recent introduction of the Demiurg).

I am convinced this forum programming is eating some of my words. I keep finding missing words and spaces when I look at my posts on the forums.

I am hoping to see other races pop up in the future as "specials" in other forces. Would love to see Terrelans, Squat/Demiurgeeven human auxiliaries in a Tau codex.

Maybe Hrud as Dark Eldar allies/slaves.

Squats in Witch Hunter Inquisitor Retinues.

I am glad that I can model "Rak'Gol" as Ssylph in the Dark Eldar Archon's retinue.

ZillaPrime said:

Except both of those still existed in the setting, even in current canon. It's just that the Zoats were wiped out by the Imperium,Squats were wiped out by the Tyranids.

So, according to the fluff, since they haven't been explicitly wiped out... sure, all that stuff is still out there, it's just not talked about, very "hush, hush"

borithan said:

This rings true in the comments made on the subject. Much of the material presented the squats like very one-dimensional, cigar-smoking biker-characters... So much so that they had a risk of becoming just a huge joke. I honestly believe that if they had no ideas on how to bring more depth and substance into the squats quietly killing them off was better solution by far. Which is actually what I think of ideas like Star ChildSensei, too. I don't see much potential in them contributing something to the 40K universe outside what they have already done.

If you think you can get something out of Squats/Zoats/Star Child/Sensei in your RPG campaign, just go ahead, but don't hold your breath expecting FFg releasing sourcebook on Sensei characters any time soon.

borithan said:

The "fantasy in space" element was what got me hooked on GW in the first place. I still remember being in the game store & seeing 40K miniatures for the first time. Orcs with, wait, are those guns? What? I owned several Space Marines (complete with metal backpacks) & Space Orks before I even knew they were for an actual game. I agree that the Squats were too comical, but not that there is no place for Space Dwarves in 40K. The fantasy archtypes in a sci-fi setting is what makes 40K truly unique. Now don't get me wrong, I like the Tau, but I'm still not totally convinced that they are really "40K". I really hope that they can do the dwarf archtype justice with the demiurg. I wouldn't mind 40K Lizardmen either...

The Star Child is a perfect idea for the RPG even though it doesn't fit the TT. Of course it's more appropriate for the DH groups if it's going to be the basis of a campaign.

The players start investigating what appears to be a benevolent Imperial Cultfind that the cult leader claims to be a direct descendant of the Emperor, Heresay of the worst kind! To make matters worse, when they try to take them down they find that he's a powerful psychic too. And their continued investigations attract the attentions of groups from within the Inquisitionwithout, could they actually belive this?

You could go a whole chapter of a campaign without mentioning sensei, illuminateStar Childstill not have the players confirm one wayanother.

For the Squats, their background was limiting them. There was only so much they could do with them being allies of the Imperiumthat mean't they were never going to be that distinct. IMHO they'd make a usefull addition to the IGInquisition rosta's like the other abhumans, the IG could use anyhting that show's up what mongrol army it is (more than oneskin tone would go down wonders).

For the codex writers that are keeping the dream alive, they have one major factor to think about. That's that there's supposed to be a lot of long gone history that they only need to touch on at best. There were supposed to be thousands of aliennon imperial civilisations prior to the great crusadeeven a long time afterwards the Imperiuam wasn't as cleared up to the extent it is now.

I just realized that I left the "e" out of archetype both times I typed it. I'm off to flog myself now.

The sensei as written seem more than a little too Mary Sue-ish to me, at least from what I've read of them. The general notion of a Star Child-style incarnation of the Emperor in the Warp and humans who manifest qualities similar to the Emperor fit well into the mold of positive developments that are presented as possibilities, but nevertheless too vague and uncertain to really provide a definitive resolution to the conflicts within the setting (not unlike the return of the vanished loyalist Primarchs and so forth). That's only the case, however, as long as they don't show up as Mary Sues/Dues-Ex-Machina in actual material to be oh-so-perfect and able to save the day if they just aren't soooo oppressseeed by the terrible people who just don't understand how special they are.

i agree that the sensei are somewhat played up but the idea (i think previously mentioned) that they are psykers who have the honest belief that they secure their powers from the emperor directly rather than the warp is a step in the right direction (for me)... maybe they are not direct descendants but the idea that they take power from Him makes the idea plausible... especially if you start to add in "faith" talents etc... in any event the decision is for dm and players alike to decide whether they are or are not part of their games history... i would just like to see how this would start to see the game world evolve...

ps... what if the "imperial truth" was then advocated by these "heretics"? how would the astartes move? what would happen with the current view on faith?