Lol, about 10 or so years ago I painted a squad of Catchatan Jungle Fighters for an unoffical painting competition losely based on the 'Dirty Dosen' and got disqualified because the judge belived that everyone in W40k is White.
People are weird.
Skin tone in the 40K universe.
Robban-O said:
aethel said:
Forgive me, but it really sounded like you just said I don't have a clue, but that is okay because men are trying to keep me powerless and ignorant. I am going to assume I got that wrong. I think we best return you all to your regularly scheduled programming about skin color.
For the record, no I did not. My point was to look beyond any obvious differences besides the ususall stuff like money and stats.
Perhaps you should be very specif, as it seems many here eithier find your posts thus far to be obtuse, or prentensous. I am not saying eithie is your intention, just that a majority of those that have posted in direct relation to your initial post regarding the disparity of genders in (the industry? the 'real world'? or the game itself or the setting it represents??) more than a bit confusing as they seem to reflect your views of 'obvious' failings that we are failing to percive.
If you explain in detail perhaps people will at the least understand where you are comming from, and at best may actually find that they agree with oyu. Currently I am completely confused as to what exactly it is you are attempting to address, as indicating by the above '??' apended list in the above.
I cannot think of any of the 'obvious' stuff represented in the Dark Heresy game let alone the 40,000 setting, thus would be hard pressed to look 'beyond it'. If I did want to engage in an exercise of finding circumstantial instances to try to build a case in eithier direction I think I could but that is more an example of 'spin' than any actual intended or even exsistant disparity. So if you're earnest in your stated disdain for such things as you've mentioned please explain them beyond simply stating that they 'are there'.
Ripper.McGuirl said:
So I just rolled up a new character tonight and ended up with a wiry mid thirties guy with dyed hair and eyes, grey hair, and a giant aquila tattoo.
I chose to go for red skin (figuring on a deep dark "red gore" kind of red), grey/blue eyes, and the aquilia tattooed across his entire face, representing a tattoo forced upon him in prison, as a slight against him for being from a shrine world, and thus, obviously working for the man.
I don't really remember reading too much about the crazy dyed skins in any of the fiction I've read, and in hindsight, that's pretty disappointing. I know I've read that it happens, but I can't think of any examples in any of the Gaunt/Ravenor/Eisenhorn/etc books that I've read.
Does anyone have any examples? Now that I think about it, it's a totally missed opportunity, and somewhere full of people with crazy color changing dermal implants with obsidian studs dotting their faces could certainly be an interesting place to find yourself if you are a pasty void-born.
There are of course the examples from the Eiseinhorn book of the Inquisitor's which use various surgies to make themselves more imposing I'm sure I've read of the dying of skin but I can't find it a t present here are though some examples of extremes in decoration I'll try to find more later:
From Confrontation (The proto Necromunda):
'Undercity gangs are perhaps the most ritualistic of all gangs. Initiation rites, scarification, tattooing, and body decoration are taken to extremes. ...' and 'Nomads have their own ritualistic and tribal society which is distinct from the clans of the hives.... Some nomads make extensive use of body-painting as a means of protecting their skin from the sun and the dust as well as decoration.'
'A second squat... eyes darting behind slits cut in the brightly painted Fealty mask stitched into the skin of his face .' Seed of Doubt
'His teeth were painted black as a signal that any smile of his was dark.' Warped Stars
'The Master [inquisitor] was a black man. His ... face bore concentric circles of ridgid ebon sacrs around eyes and mouth. ... to pouting lips beaded with pearls, ... and to eyes with mirrored lenses.' Harlequin
'A scar across one cheek to which were sewn saphires.' Harlequin
2 things -
1) the original post and following discussion did not have anything to do with whether or not there is ethnic discrimination in the Imperium (given culture/socio-economic class/abhuman-mutant status/other divides; I'm sure there is rampant in-setting discrimination from multiple directions in just about every group that is different from another group). The OP was in response to some fool saying that non-caucasians didn't exist in the setting. (a truly bizarre and readily disproven position) No one has ever suggested that women do not exist in-setting.
2)
Robban-O said:
I would hope not and that was not my point either. What I was trying to say is that DH stands in line with all other pop-cultural media emphazising on the different roles of man and women. Yes, there are strong women in the setting, that has stepped up and taken the typical roles of men but there are few in comparision. There are however no men that has taken the traditional roles of women. The manly man is still the pinacle of evolution and the very fact that they say that women are not equal to men actually means nothing. It is there in plain view anyway.
Look, DH are not particular bad in this regard, probably one of the better but in the end is just like most media in our culture. Saying otherwise would only mean that you either don't really have a clue how these things work, which ok since a whole gender is trying to keep their hands on the power and people ignorant ( Wu's first respone was a excellent example of what I mean), or you are convinced that there are equality between the sexes. I could not just say nothing when someone tries to say it is positive thing.
You seem to be attacking a sentence somewhere that says that on some planets there is in-setting gender discrimination, and saying that there should not be such discrimination in the game universe (while at the same time going on about the horrors of such discrimination in the real world).
So in a dystopian setting of crushing oppression and grinding poverty filled with horror and death, somehow you seem to think a utopian ideal of perfect politically correct social equality for genders is necessary. How is social equality, or lack there of, for the sexes a special sacrosanct issue that should somehow rise above all other human problems and failings addressed in the setting?
I mean in a setting where genestealers can impregnate and subvert humans of either gender by violent attack, where cannibalistic death cults can be the good guys, and chaos followers and dark eldar have been know to **** people to death; how can anyone in their right mind expect the writers to go "in the 40k universe every horror and inequity possible to inflict on humans exists and thrives EXCEPT sexual discrimination because that would just be wrong." Please, that is patently absurd.
Additionaly RPGs as a market have often pushed toward over-sensitivity. I've read gaming books that the writers clearly worry so much about it that the make absolutely sure that examplesof play always altenate 1 w/ male character, 1 w/ female character, and go out of their way to use female pronouns in all rules. (WoD did this in some of their books) The only reason this bothers me in any way is that someone among their writers/editors assumes this somehow is a drastic necessity needed to ensure equality when it accomplishes nothing one way the other.
No one here or representing DH (to my knowledge) has suggested that women are inferior. The person who said that SHE thought including and acknowledging in setting discrimination was an interesting element in this work of collective FICTION know as role-playing is a woman. (Overcoming challenges, be they reflected in the real world, or dreamed up monstrosities is at the core of any compelling tale fictional or factual)
Banning sexual discrimnation (or suggesting it should be) from being addressed in fictional settings will not make it go away in the real world. To suggest otherwise doesn't help or illustrate the real world problem. It is about as pin-headed and delusional as ranting about how taking violence out of video games will suddenly make the world a perfect place of peace and love.
[bTW Wu's "ignorant" first reply to your post was a suprisingly graceful response to this absurdity, but since that apparently doesn't sucessfully communicate the point, perhaps my more blunt approach will sink in.]
Bravo DOCIII. I agree. In today's society, unfortunately, art is often criticized if it doesnt so 100% equality and fairness for race/sex/creed/orientation. Its so rediculous that it even affects our works of fiction, like movies, video games and comics/novels. Yes I, in reality, accept that all are created equal and cherish the notion of equality. But I also realize that it isnt a thought that has always existed and doesnt always exist today.
There are strong female characters in 40K, and not all of them Sisters of Battle. But sadly the reason why the more popular strong female leads exist isnt to bring strength and support to womens rights, its to drain the wallets of young white males.
Tomb Raider (Laura Croft) and her ilk of video game/comics/movie characters are not made to state "women are as tough and smart and fast and good as men" but to appeal to the white heterosexual video game crowd, who would rather look at Croft's CGI buns for 24 hours then stare at Indiana Jone's ass.
The point to remember is that GW is trying to sell miniatures, books and other merchandise to a wide variety of individuals, most who happen to be white males from England and the USA. Im not saying that others dont play the game, but honestly, we all know the majority are these white males (liek me). The fluff is an extension of that game universe, to cash in on the players who want more information or inspiration in their armies they buy from GW. The RPG a further extension into that base demographic.
So looking for a deeper meaning on civil rights in the pages of 40K fluff/games is quite ridiculous. Afterall, the sacrifice hundreds if not thousands of psykers to a dead god everyday.
The only fairness and equality in the 41st Millenium is that life sucks pretty much across the board.
DocIII said:
whisperer in the vault said:
I'm Filipino, born and raised in South Carolina USA
Still in SC? My group is based in/near Columbia, SC and could use a fourth player if you're in the area.
(Sorry for the OT post, but w/o the much mourned loss of a PM feature, not much option)
Not quite Columbia, I live in Summerville. Next time I'm up there for a Carolina Game, I'll drop you a line. Thanks for the invite!
Peacekeeper_b said:
The point to remember is that GW is trying to sell miniatures, books and other merchandise to a wide variety of individuals, most who happen to be white males from England and the USA. Im not saying that others dont play the game, but honestly, we all know the majority are these white males (liek me). The fluff is an extension of that game universe, to cash in on the players who want more information or inspiration in their armies they buy from GW.
It's probably less about who they're selling to, and more about who authors are. When thinking up a character, one generally defaults to their own identity unless they have a particular concept in mind. Which is why most characters in 40k are male and white unless the idea was, say, nuns or mongols.
Wu Ming said:
Perhaps you should be very specif, as it seems many here eithier find your posts thus far to be obtuse, or prentensous. I am not saying eithie is your intention, just that a majority of those that have posted in direct relation to your initial post regarding the disparity of genders in (the industry? the 'real world'? or the game itself or the setting it represents??) more than a bit confusing as they seem to reflect your views of 'obvious' failings that we are failing to percive.
If you explain in detail perhaps people will at the least understand where you are comming from, and at best may actually find that they agree with oyu. Currently I am completely confused as to what exactly it is you are attempting to address, as indicating by the above '??' apended list in the above.
I cannot think of any of the 'obvious' stuff represented in the Dark Heresy game let alone the 40,000 setting, thus would be hard pressed to look 'beyond it'. If I did want to engage in an exercise of finding circumstantial instances to try to build a case in eithier direction I think I could but that is more an example of 'spin' than any actual intended or even exsistant disparity. So if you're earnest in your stated disdain for such things as you've mentioned please explain them beyond simply stating that they 'are there'.
Ok, I kept I short because I got the impression that no one had any interest in discussing it any further. The thing got me started was the line about in the book, not because it was there but because it was regared as something good. If DH were the only product that had lines like this there would be no problem, because it would be alone. I could belive in the reasons for having a setting with inferior women. The difference here is that it is not alone. Almost all kinds of pop-cultural media pictures women as inferior in the regared that they put them in their traditional roles. Males are strong, brave, take iniative, leads and so on. Women are weaker, more fragile and are suppose to appealing to men. In the name of progress there are a few women that takes the roles of men (but never the other way around) but they are fewer.
Since practically all media uses these archetypes I have no real objections against how it is used in DH. It is a product from a specific culture, ours, and we have those archetypes. But when using those archetypes it is at the same time reproducing them meaning it stands in line with all the rest of the media products out there, movies, books, comics and magazines painting a picture were women is inferior. I can't agree with anything saying that is good or realistic.
I will have a response for DocIII this evening but now I have to go to work.
When I painted my Space Marines with dark skin (made up my own Chapter) all of my 40K peers told me that it was impossible: all Space Marines were genetically created causasians.
I shortly stopped playing 40K after that.
How sad - especially given how very very wrong they were............ 
Robban-O said:
I could belive in the reasons for having a setting with inferior women.
It never says that its a setting with inferior women. It says that things are often harder for women b/c some sections of the society in the setting treat them as inferior/discriminate against them. This is not in any way a statement about the quality of the women in the setting inferior/superior or otherwise. It is a statement about a problem women face due to how they're treated, and a statement that in the hyper-opressive imperium that such ill treatment reaches medieval levels or beyond. It is never presented as a virtue. In fact it calls attention to a real world problem that you seem to be passionate about.
Neither did Aethel [sp?] suggest that poor treatment of women was a virtue. What she said was positive was that the setting would deal with this issue, i.e. that it would allow for the posibility that its players were sufficiently advanced humans to be able to deal a setting with more mature themes/problems beyond just "can I shoot the monster" in a time when most similar products fail to/fear to address such issues.
Acknowledging/stating the existance of an inequity does not equal promotion of said inequity as a good thing. Further, acknowledging of an inequity it far more vital to combating said inequity than ignoring it.
DocIII said:
It never says that its a setting with inferior women. It says that things are often harder for women b/c some sections of the society in the setting treat them as inferior/discriminate against them. This is not in any way a statement about the quality of the women in the setting inferior/superior or otherwise. It is a statement about a problem women face due to how they're treated, and a statement that in the hyper-opressive imperium that such ill treatment reaches medieval levels or beyond. It is never presented as a virtue. In fact it calls attention to a real world problem that you seem to be passionate about.
That is certainly one way of looking at it. The reason I reacted however is that the setting is pictureing women as inferior and that has actually nothing to do with the line. Because it means nothing. Even if it said that women are better than men the setting would still treat women as inferior and if the aim is trying to call attention to a world problem why reproducing that problem in the setting?
DocIII said:
Neither did Aethel [sp?] suggest that poor treatment of women was a virtue. What she said was positive was that the setting would deal with this issue, i.e. that it would allow for the posibility that its players were sufficiently advanced humans to be able to deal a setting with more mature themes/problems beyond just "can I shoot the monster" in a time when most similar products fail to/fear to address such issues.
I did not say that Aethel said it was a virtue. I questioned that she said it was positive that the issue was adressed in this manner. I find it problematic that the setting treats women inferior to men by reproducing old genderbased archetypes, that is stating that women are inferior in the setting and that a player think that is positive though.
DocIII said:
Acknowledging/stating the existance of an inequity does not equal promotion of said inequity as a good thing. Further, acknowledging of an inequity it far more vital to combating said inequity than ignoring it.
I could not agree more.
Out of interest does anyone know what range of colours the human skin can achieve - can it go bright red in the right circumstances (not just sunburn) or green or whatever. If not naturally could you alter the genetics so you could?
Da Boss said:
Out of interest does anyone know what range of colours the human skin can achieve - can it go bright red in the right circumstances (not just sunburn) or green or whatever. If not naturally could you alter the genetics so you could?
I'm not sure what's possible beyond the huge range of natural skin colours, but I do know that diet can also have a significant (and unnatural) impact. One case in point, was the guy who consumed colloidal silver over a long period of time as a tonic; his skin turned blue. I remember another report on the same guy noting that because the consumption had occured over such a long period, it was likely irreversible.
So, it's easy to envision a community living on a planet where all the local flora and fauna contain strong traces of a given element, and that through diet, these elements are absorbed by the populace, changing their skin colour to something outside the norm.
Here's a link to a YouTube news report on the guy:
cheers!
Colin
There are also vitamins that if consumed in excessive quantities can turn you a variety of other colors, so between genetic drift, alien diets, chemical/pollutant exposure and ingenuity of folks w/ dyes almost any color seems possible.
Of course if it is genetic/exposure related one has to wonder: at what point is it still okay and a what point does the funny colored guy get declared a mutant and set on fire?
Yes, I'd heard of this phenomena too. I read somewhere once that Sunny De....what? [briefly confers with defamation lawyers]...er...a popular orange based drink can cause one to turn orange if drunk in excessive amounts.
not only is there diversity in skin tone in the imperium but also a degree of other races (qualified as abhumans) even in the imperial guard. Ogryns, Ratlings (halflings like, not skaven), beastmen and Demiurgs. Probably a few others i dont know too. At least according to older fluff.
cyndre said:
not only is there diversity in skin tone in the imperium but also a degree of other races (qualified as abhumans) even in the imperial guard. Ogryns, Ratlings (halflings like, not skaven), beastmen and Demiurgs. Probably a few others i dont know too. At least according to older fluff.
The Demiurg are aliens, not Abhumans. Squats were Abhuman (Homo sapiens rotundus), along with Ogryns (Homo sapiens giganticus), Ratlings (Homo sapiens minimus) and Beastmen (stable breeds only, generally referred to as Homo sapiens variatus), but the Demiurg, while being based on similar concepts (space miners, high-tech, hate Orks, etc), are not just another name for the same thing - Abhumans are subspecies of humanity, the Demiurg (like the Tau, the Eldar and the Orks) are Xenos.
And the name Demiurg is like sheep - you don't change it when using it as a plural.
Ripper.McGuirl said:
"So, today, I got my very first inflammatory hate mail."
It happens...
Ripper.McGuirl said:
"If you look at the character drawing thread I started, you'll see that my sister of battle character is black."
Do you have a link, I would like to see your work.
Ripper.McGuirl quoted emailer:
"I would direct you to the official GW art and tell you you're wrong."
Actually the emailer is wrong. I painted a 'black' (West-Indian) marine for a cover of the old WD comic and there was no problem, and the Inquisitor in the cover of Warrior Brood I put over as 'Brazilian'. It didn't make waves, or make the editors bat an eyelid.
There would would be more representations of people from the various population clines in 40K if the artists paint them - there is no rule to say they so not exist. In fact there are probably far more clines and variations in humanity in 40K than in our world.
Also looking at the old background it has always been a mixture, I remember in the old Rogue Trader book that many signs in towns where Japanese characters, and the 'Tech' language seems to be a mixture of West and Eastern languages. Perhaps the Chinese are the first to dominate space?
To explain this away, the official material covers less than 0.001% of worlds so the idea that what we see is representative of the whole of the Imperium is an error. I tend to see it (as in 'justify it to my mind') that GW picks stories, worlds, and events that have similar demographics to Europe, or more specifically Britain.
If the Imperium has demographics anything like our world then 'whites' would be a minority.
As for 'white guilt' is that actually possible?
I'm British - so it just sounds odd.
Philip
PS: Anyone know why these quotes do work?
Philip S said:
Also looking at the old background it has always been a mixture, I remember in the old Rogue Trader book that many signs in towns where Japanese characters, and the 'Tech' language seems to be a mixture of West and Eastern languages. Perhaps the Chinese are the first to dominate space?
To quote the original Rogue Trader:
It (The language ‘Tech’) derives from the common tongue of the time, an assimilation of English, European and Pacific languages which developed over many centuries in the American/Pacific region.
The common tongue of the Age of the Imperium is spoken as a first language on all civilised planets, and is accepted as a second language on planets within imperial control with the exception of some medieval and feral worlds. This is a bastardised version of ‘Tech’, combining additional elements from several of the oriental languages of ancient Earth.
jadrax said:
Philip S said:
Also looking at the old background it has always been a mixture, I remember in the old Rogue Trader book that many signs in towns where Japanese characters, and the 'Tech' language seems to be a mixture of West and Eastern languages. Perhaps the Chinese are the first to dominate space?
To quote the original Rogue Trader:
It (The language ‘Tech’) derives from the common tongue of the time, an assimilation of English, European and Pacific languages which developed over many centuries in the American/Pacific region.
The common tongue of the Age of the Imperium is spoken as a first language on all civilised planets, and is accepted as a second language on planets within imperial control with the exception of some medieval and feral worlds. This is a bastardised version of ‘Tech’, combining additional elements from several of the oriental languages of ancient Earth.
Yeah, that's the stuff. It gives the impression that Europe are not the only ones to make it into space...
Philip
PS: How did you get yur quotes to work? (OK, why's it working now?)
Philip S said:
PS: How did you get yur quotes to work? (OK, why's it working now?)
Goes without saying , the fellow in the email (and a few others out there, especially that damned judge in the figure painting competition) seem to be;
a) ...projecting a degree of their own beliefs/political leanings/fantasies into the setting on a subconcious level, and making domain assumptions that coincide with this foundless set of assumptions.
&
b)...are total douches.
Reading this brought to mind an old Pratchett quote.
"Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because -- what with trolls and dwarfs and so on -- speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."
Kinda appropriate for the 40k universe.
Also with so many things to be scared of already, who has time to start making up new ones?
As to how far skintone could go into the more exotic before being considered mutation?
All depends on the stability of the trait I'd imagine.
If such a trait was present in a population, due to environmental alteration and/or amplified as a result of isolation prior to explorators reconciling them with Imperial control, then I'd be inclined to think that after a certain degree of testing by the magos biologis, designed to appease the more hardlined members of the ecclesiarchy present (or paranoid interested inquisitorial parties for that matter).
Combined with close scrutiny of the populous belief structures and how well they adapt to or conform with ministorum teachings, judgment on whether the alteration would be considered part of His plan would be made.
Though on saying that, be far enough away form home and a blue skinned guardsman could get the type of treatment reserved for mutants and the like.
Just my take on it of course.
Makes me wonder though, we know that there is a certain degree of mutant underclass in 40k, and some worlds even rely on it to an extent, but what level of traits and alteration of form would have a chance of being 'sanctified'?
Would it stretch as far as minor alterations of body morphology like the ratlings, ogryn and the late lamented squats? or would we be looking at even the smallest changes, however stable, being viewed with suspicion and fear?
(also, a shiney new throne for the forum techsavant who tells me how to singlespace this Emperor forsaken post.)