aethel said:

I would say it is problematic. First of all it is not a realistic product so there is no need to have realistic elements in it, if you choose to call loss of womens right realistic which I don't. More over, it is a game of fiction and not historical fact. There is actually nothing that would indicate that women would loss their right if religion again would be the major cultural influence of the world. Especially if the religon at hand does not specify that women should be inferior to men.

It is actually a decsion, based on nothing but personal preferences, made by the designers to include that aspect. That puts this game in line with every other form of media that portraits women as inferior to men. This is not the first time I have put forwards these arguements discussing games which states that in their setting women are inferior "but it is because of a good reason". What Dark Heresy does in that phrase is to step in line with every other cultural phenomenon that tries to work against the equality of women and men.

Which is very evident in the actual design of the game, female characters are penalised in many ways, that while promoting versimlitude, fail to create an actual balacnced enviroment. This is evident in many ways both subtle and overt, they recieve less Thrones for performing the very same occupations as their male counterparts, often hit the plasteel cieling, being unable to advance as quickly or as far as a male PC would (only being able I think to reach Rank 8 currently.) Their statistical attributes present a shocking look into the quasi mysoginystic inclinations and promotion of baleful sterotypes on the part of the designers, having lower Strength, Toughness and Intelgence than males generated with the same system.

This phenomona becomes more exacerbated when one looks at the function of the sector itself, many females are put in deadend de facto ineffectual postitions like Seinor Arbitor Kae Drusil whose career is practially halted by her being segregated from the main Adeptus Arbite population and placed in charge of the DI. I also think there is some crude 'inside joke' regarding certain aspects of the female biological functions, this is in the very juvinile creation of some religious cult the 'Red Redemtion' they are suposed to be crazy or angry all the time. Very mature BI/FFG, their leader in the sector is a women. I don't know where they come up with this stuff. Also some PCs are excluded from entering some of the 'better' Careers, based soley on their character's gender, by making them unavalible to PCs of a specific gender! This really hit home with the publication of the Inquisitor's Handbook .

In all very good point, Robban-O, I couldn't agree more.

hmm interesting

I have played black white and Asian characters in many games as well as male and female - I never understand people being suprised and saying you can't/shouldn't play a woman etc when they are happy to play a Xenos (or Elf, Dwarf etc in other games) - very odd. I have also on occcassion even played racist characters - just for a change .

Had good fun playing a complete xenophobic Coalition charater in rifts - despite the best attempts of the GM and other players to change his mind as the campaign progressed. He hated everything non human - any form of "normal" (non magical) human was a brother or sistser to lay his life on the line for.

I missed some of the above undertext and about female characters being penalised? Must go back and re-read.

I have always assumed that some planets/societies of the Imperium are sexist and racist being dominated by men or women (House Goliath/Escher of Necromunda) or by one "type" of people. I also think the Inquisitoon would keep an eye on any sects that tend to promote the supperirity of one aspect of humanity to the exclusion of others - in case they are culists - Genestealer hybrds.

Many game backgrounds are like this - but I always assume that PCs are NOT your normal people - I remember more than a decade ago a woman joining my Stormbringer game at college and being suprised that her female chacrter did not get stat reductions like in D+D. I had not thought about it - she was a hardended adventuer like the rest of the PCs - why should she.........?

The Imperial Guard has a number of canon single sex only Regiments drawing from the these societies and also mixed sex regiments. On a related note I am not sure what the Imperial line is on sexual preference (although at least one of Cains Valhalan female troopers prefers women - which he seems unconcerned about - although this might be just him) - probbaly depends on the same things noted above.

Of course "they " do pander to us (people like me who like looking at sexy fantasy figures ) in much of the art / getups of female characters btut again its probaly down to the (perhaps self [perpetuating) demograpgic of players.

I cannot believe somebody was actually bothered by a skin tone let alone feel the need to write an e-mail about it.

The way I see it there are many races of mankind in the Imperium and some planets might be predominantly black or white (or whatever) or even consist entirely of a mixed race. I can imagine a group of explorers who set out long ago, found a planet, settled on it, in come the warpstorms which means all contact with outside worlds is lost so that their descendents are all coming from the same genetic stock.
Everybody has their own views on the 40K-verse and that is fine because even the fluff contradicts itself (BL all the way) but for god's sake don't take your own ideas for the one and only truth.
My own verse has every race under the sky (and more) and as for men and women; women are only underclassed in religious societies as I feel it is right for what I want in the setting. For instance, there are no female tech-priests in my stories because it feels wrong to me for some reason but that does not mean I'll start to complain when somebody does have it or a new player really wants to.
I didn't see in the book that female characters are penalised however; that's weird and something I'll leave out or adjust with increasing other scores for female characters like Fellowship or Agility. I haven't had any players who wished to play a woman but I'll definitely look into that.

I think while racial features will remain constant, skin coloration will tend toward lighter colors in hivedwellers and among the voidborn.

The Out of Africa theory, population genetics and drift suggest that our original dark skin color took as much as 20,000 years to get to my current almost transparent Irish coloration. The poor souls of 40K have had twice that time to drift even farther . Who knows what colors will result?

Some planets will certainly feature darker colors of folks, especially since there is so little mixing between planetary populations. I remember seeing some Van Saars painted in African skin tones, and saying "But they live in a hive... they'd be white. Not Caucasian... actually white , like a peice of paper white."

That said, genetics is science, this is fiction. Science Fiction. I let realism guide me.

Sorry for the confusion, there are no statisticcal diffrences for women in Dark Heresy .

I was just being a prat. I apologise that wasn't too mature of a response.

Jephkay said:

Nope, this is not science-fiction. This is science- fantasy . And so there are people from Dreah, who are grey (, the fact is, that everything on Dreah is grey...)

I have never understood why there should be any statistical difference or racial differences between any two humans in any roleplay game. Individuals are all that matters.

Why should a sister of battle not be black, or asian? Why do they have to be white? The answer is they don't. Perhaps if they only recruited off planets that had a white population, or it was written explicitly into the background that they were always white, then you might have an arguement. Otherwise it is people being stupid.

On our one planet we have lots of skin tones. So why would the imperium have less? It just does not make sense. I personally have played most ethnic origins in my RPs and I have npcs of many origins. Why wouldn't there be?

Crimsonsphinx said:

Well honestly, and Im not on Hate Mongers side, but there is room for debates here.

There are any number of reasons why there may be a dominant skin tone in the 40K universe. As was mentioned earlier it only took 20,000 years for the modern variation of "lighter" skin tones to evolve from the out of africa migration. With that as the basis and the reason for the lighter pigmentation being the need for less solar protection from the rays of ultraviolet radiation from the sun, the humans on terra have two possible evolutionary patterns.

1. Either the continued deteriation of the ozone layer will require humans to evolve into darker skin tones or mankind will protect itself from the sun, be it in hives or space stations or space ships.

or 2. Genetic modification, as we know the Imperium was once into with the creation of some abhumans (afriel strain, adeptus astartes, and so forth).

So if Terra hides from the sun in massive hive cities for thousands of years and then shuttles off in great ships seeking the great first crusades of the empire, then it is highly possible skin tones would become lighter and lighter generation after generation.

However, once settled onto new planets and worlds then evolution has a free hand, hence the creation of ratlings, squats and ogryns.

It would not surprise me if there was some race war in the dark days of the 40K history that created a pre-dominant race of people. The Imperium is a modified futuristic space variety of the Soviet and Nazi empires, both of which were known to engage in "ethnic" cleansing, which is a pretty popular human front.

But doubtless, even if a "single race" emerged from Terra in the year 20,000 to create a star spanning empire, 20,000 years alter colonists and settlers would have adapted to their new environs and produced new demographics of terrans.

So who is to say what skin tones really do exist in the 4st Millenium?

Sorry to burst your bubble peackeeper_b but the Emporer was black.

...

No, but seriously Few questions though on your post from where are you making the leap that facism or facist totolatarin regims must be headed or reuled by caucasions or european ethinicities or cultures, if and I say IF the Imperium had its root in a Naziesque NWO why does that mean that they were necessarly 'white'. Genetically speaking all of the traits asciated with such ideals (being the nordic SS one) are recessive, the blue eyes, fair skin, light hair.

My mother's mother is 100% Old World German, my Mother's Father Arab, my mum looks nothing like my maternal grandmother, in one generation those traits were lost. They can still crop up, my wife's brother has a daughter who has grey / light blue eyes, while both of her parents do not, they're originally from the indian sub continet but someone down the line the markers for the blue eys are they're, none of their other children have such 'fair' features. My point though is without intentional gene manipulation or eradication of specif features from the gene/breeding pool, most features would likely defualt to 'brown' namely just becasue they are dominant.

However since we have to my knowledge no evidence to state that their were such programs and since we know that not all nor even most Imperial Worlds are Night/Dark or Hive Worlds then there is no overiding evidence to lead one to belive that eithier through intentional Imperial Progroms nor 'Natural Selection' the Majority of the Imperium's human stock would tend towards being 'fair'. It like differs greatly from world to world, and to be honest I doubt that many humans of the 41st m. are or would be recognisable as such by our standards many images and descriptioins of humans esp. from RT erar sources lean towards the monstrous and grotesque -- and these are the 'pure' non mutant specimins mind you.

So disappointed with this thread.

Not with any of the posters mind you, just when I saw the title I was hoping for a discussion of the blue, purple and greenish humans fo the 41st millenium and a discussion of how far out from traditional (real world up through present ALL ethnicities) skin coloration you could go before being considered an inhuman mutant.

Then the thread turns out to be something so banal and some fool porting his real life racisim into a space fantasy setting.

And the argument that something is one way or another b/c "I've seen 40k miniatures painted" w/ one skin color or another? Come on, all that indicates is which paint pot the guy doing those specific models grabbed. If I want teal paisley skinned guardsmen with puce eyebrows and plaid eyes, well just giver me half an hour w/ my brush and a decent selection of paints.

Wu Ming said:

I wouldn't stress about it. The post you were satirizing needed someone to take a shot at its pretentiousness.

I think the only problem comes that in the writing instead of speaking, intended subtext is easily lost and unintended subtext stemming from the readers point of view is too easily added.

whisperer in the vault said:

Still in SC? My group is based in/near Columbia, SC and could use a fourth player if you're in the area.

(Sorry for the OT post, but w/o the much mourned loss of a PM feature, not much option)

Well that is something I was slightly trying to touch on at the end of my last post. I recall many sescriptions of people dying their skin, sewing in jewls and precious stones / materials into their flesh, replace their teeth, blackening them, whiting them ect. Cosmetic surgey being very prominant and this being with SM, High Lords, Inquisitors ect. the concept of 'human' seemed to be very fluid, just look at Heldane who was eithier at one time seen as being a puritan he leaned towards the monstrous without too much censure from his peers on account of hi unhuman visage. Old Ad Mech pics have them looking like Giger-esque quasi xenomorphs, slayed faces, double visages, horns tubes ect. However in recent years we do have a retuen in art and modles at least of the more typical 'normal' looking people (if super muscled a sligtly disporprtiant people are nromal.)

Wu Ming said:

Never said it had to be white, I said it wouldnt surprise me if their was a race war, I never stated any winner or color of that winner.

I beleive the skin tone would be different then "white" as it is now, because of either a) more solar radiation from depleted ozone making the skin darker or b) living in hives/ships for generations making the skin tone lighter.

Even if al the humans in the future become teal, you would still have shades of teal. Dark teal, light teal, medium teal and it would be heavily a genetic trait.

But I digress, I admit Im guilty, I paint most of my figures white.

And I primarily painted my Nemennorean Imperial Guard brown because, well, I was out of dwarf flesh LOL.

But I did paint my Imperial Guard 2nd-107th Peacekeepers light elf flesh because of the rational that they live on ships their entire lives.

Cheers

Dream Pod 9's Heavy Gear had some interesting takes on this. Basically what had happened in the setting was that earth at one point had had a lengthy ice age that forced people to move south, gradually mixing all races, colours and creeds creating a mixed base line human. It seems likely that something similar could have happened on the 40 K earth giving the baseline human in 40K a sorta cafe latte look, but again, the Empire spans a million worlds across the galaxy I don't really think there is a "baseline", anything goes.

Also I just want to say to poke at the guy who wrote the mail to you Ripper, if you read this (original emailer, not Ripper). I fart in your general direction, you mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elder berries, now go away or I shall taunt you once again. That pretty much sums up how silly sending you an email like that is *sigh*.

/Hug and keep up the great art you have been putting out there for the lot of us to see.

Don't worry Wu Ming, I got your tone. ^_~
To quote page 30: "players may pick whichever gender they wish to play, with no handicap."

Robban-O said:

Well, you are certainly entitled to your own opinion about the setting's portrayal of gender, though it doesn't change mine.
I find it very appropriate that when we run around on Scintilla and similar Hive worlds, that I can be as armed as the boys (it's a dangerous universe after all!), but that when we go to some backwater feudal worlds which have a very medieval Europe feel, I have to deal with little issues like the fact I stick out as a woman with a sword (particularly if we are trying to pass for high society).

When I play D&D, no one looks at my armed female character askance. But I like the fact that the culture of Warhammer / Dark Heresy low tech worlds echoes that of primitive earth, while that of high fantasy settings like D&D does not.

True, every group needs to find a balance. It's fun when I have to deal with little things like the above, or a higher proportion of males in my chosen occupation than females. Now if every time we came up with a plan, the other Acolytes said "shut up woman!" that would get frustrating. But I'd like to think most roleplaying groups are progressive enough for the players and GM to respect the female players more than that.

Perhaps I would feel differently if I were unfortunate enough to have dealt with much overt discrimination in my actual life. But since I haven't, I find it interesting. To be quite frank, to me the historically similar settings are more empowering. Because it makes my strong female character unusual, as opposed to making the assumption that being a woman who can behave as the equal of men is easy, and will naturally have been overcome by all in the hate-filled, violent world of the 41'st century.

Bottom line: nothing about the DH setting makes me feel any less the equal of a man. I think acknowledging that such biases existed in the past and still exist in many places of the world today by stating that they could exist in "on some planets" (quoting page 30 again) is actually a progressive stance. But, I suppose like nearly every other aspect of a campaign, it comes down to personal preference.

Let me ask a simple question. Does the future in a grim dark society ruled by fear and military might have to be politically correct? I just find it slightly hard to believe that in a universe filled with monsters, demons, sorcerers, alien invasions, conscription, lobotimized cyborg servants, above the law inquisitors, mass executions and rules and laws to regulate exterminatus of entire cultures and planets, that we all argue that it has to be politically correct.

aethel said:

I would hope not and that was not my point either. What I was trying to say is that DH stands in line with all other pop-cultural media emphazising on the different roles of man and women. Yes, there are strong women in the setting, that has stepped up and taken the typical roles of men but there are few in comparision. There are however no men that has taken the traditional roles of women. The manly man is still the pinacle of evolution and the very fact that they say that women are not equal to men actually means nothing. It is there in plain view anyway.

Look, DH are not particular bad in this regard, probably one of the better but in the end is just like most media in our culture. Saying otherwise would only mean that you either don't really have a clue how these things work, which ok since a whole gender is trying to keep their hands on the power and people ignorant ( Wu's first respone was a excellent example of what I mean), or you are convinced that there are equality between the sexes. I could not just say nothing when someone tries to say it is positive thing.

So I just rolled up a new character tonight and ended up with a wiry mid thirties guy with dyed hair and eyes, grey hair, and a giant aquila tattoo.

I chose to go for red skin (figuring on a deep dark "red gore" kind of red), grey/blue eyes, and the aquilia tattooed across his entire face, representing a tattoo forced upon him in prison, as a slight against him for being from a shrine world, and thus, obviously working for the man.

I don't really remember reading too much about the crazy dyed skins in any of the fiction I've read, and in hindsight, that's pretty disappointing. I know I've read that it happens, but I can't think of any examples in any of the Gaunt/Ravenor/Eisenhorn/etc books that I've read.

Does anyone have any examples? Now that I think about it, it's a totally missed opportunity, and somewhere full of people with crazy color changing dermal implants with obsidian studs dotting their faces could certainly be an interesting place to find yourself if you are a pasty void-born.

Robban-O said:

Forgive me, but it really sounded like you just said I don't have a clue, but that is okay because men are trying to keep me powerless and ignorant. I am going to assume I got that wrong. I think we best return you all to your regularly scheduled programming about skin color.

Ripper - I have an Inquisitor with bleached white skin. And while I conceptualized her before reading the Ravenor novels, I'm pretty sure they reference that the rogue trader in that series has bleached skin as well.

What is worth taking into account is just how much sunlight a particular world gets. It is likely hive worlders who never see daylight would be white, but those in tropical environments might well be black or other skin tones.

Its all a matter of common sense, and I guess personal preference. Honestly I never specify skin colour unless a player asks me anyway. Why does it matter? The same goes for hair colour, eyes etc, unless someone specifically looks, the characters are likely to assume all humans are well human, and that is all that matters.

Regarding the gender issue which seems to have cropped up, I can't see why anyone would have a problem with female pcs on feral worlds. It is just as possible that it is a female orientated planet, where the males are sub-servant. Nothing automatically follows suit of our own planet.

I must admit I often describe the colour of people but then sometimes say like X, Y Z from the film, tv show or whatever to help peoplke get a clear picture - if not I try to have a picture of all important NPCs (usually from Renderoisty or Google) - picture - i find it helps.

In regard to the opening post, sadly, I've long since ceased to be surprised by the pettiness and hatred found in fandom, any fandom. Look mostly anywhere and you'll encounter pathetic nerdrage, folks lacking a clear perspective on the importance of things in life, ad nauseum. That so many folks are unable to think beyond canon, that so many mistake the presentation of visuals to a set audience as being the way of things, isn't shocking, however sad it might be.

Truth be told, most illustrations are of white male characters in most rpgs, but that's not because every setting must therefore be purely white; it's simply the fact that the art tends to target the given purchasing audience. In GW's case, that's young white males. Plus, unless you specify otherwise, most artists in the field (themselves primarily white males) will default to drawing white male characters because that's what they expect, and that's what they find easy (well, that, and attractive young white women).

Unfortunately, this tendency means that some numpties assume that the art must therefore reflect the realities of a given setting, which is a dangerous assumption to say the least, because it runs counter to logic and shuts off a lot of possibilities. The funny thing is, most rpg art (in the general sense here) tends to illustrate sample protagonists as attractive far more often than not. An aspect of wish fulfillment, most certainly, but (weirdly) many idiots like the racist quoted in the opening post seem to be able to look beyond that, but get serious tunnel vision when it comes to other elements of potential diversity.

cheers!

Colin

aethel said:

For the record, no I did not. My point was to look beyond any obvious differences besides the ususall stuff like money and stats.