Is this errata or am i missing something: The forger and navigator cannot read? (i.e. take the education skill?) Forger's descriptuion indicates that he's an expert of professional jargon, etc., and navigators& messengers 'kind of use maps and stuff.'

Help!

jh

FOUR ranks to become literate in something they should already be able to do (and were good at it in previous editions).

jh

I wouldn't necessarily say messengers can read by default/logic;
Navigators the same. You don't necessarily need a map to navigate, and even so, a map is more image than text.

However, it does lean in so close to what they would be about that it most definitely should be something they can select.

Forgers: no question about it.

The idea of a vastly illiteracy population in Medieval and Renaissance era settings is historically based - but oftened overdone. The difficulty of acquiring literacy in WFRP3 seems to be based on this.

In a Renaissance era setting a transactional level of literacy should be relatively common amongst many 'silver tier' classes. Full literacy and a modest education would not be unheard of. In the real world the church provided most primary education, and often people of modest backgrounds could get their children taught. The Old World has temples of Verena which should be running these schools.

The fact is that government in these times needs a fair number of scribes and accountants- which these schools fed. A butcher's son could rise to be 2nd only to the King through this route (although that didn't end well). The goverment of Elizabeth I of England ran into real trouble when they found themselves running out of literate people - due to Henry VIII dissolution of the monasteries which took most of the schools with them. This lead to a huge investment in large scale education. Not mass education as we know it, but at the end of her reign perhaps 40% of the urban male population had basic literacy.

So the 4 advances for basic literacy is perhaps ott.

Navigator who can't read maps is called a....scout. We already have that career.

Forgers and navigators have always been able to read and write as part of their career for two editions running and suddenly they can't. I call that errata. Not just a house rule, but to be included in errata.

jh

Perhaps these folks should start first in a career with access to education (I think several winds of magic ones have it, no?)

Maybe a forger has a past history and you do something before being a navigator.

Rob

I also think there should be an errata for the literacy rule and Education. It just makes no sense, basic literacy should be something all players have (unless they want to make it a personality quirk to not be able to read). Real world history aside, I have never thought of the Old world and the Empire as a place where only the academic careers are able to read, that idea is just not supported in any other source I can think of.

Basing literacy on the tier is a much better idea in my opinion. Depending on what tier the PC can be considered belonging to they will be able to read and write basic stuff (brass no, silver and gold yes). Getting the Education skill would just mean that you can actually use your reading/writing to make skill checks, without you can only do the really easy stuff.

To be honest I think this idea is supported in the current rules already. (MINOR SPOILER HERE).
If you check the Black fire pass adventure you will see that there is one point in the adventure where the PC's are expected to read something (a dwarfish rune), no education check is asked for and none of the pregen chars have the skill in any case. Maybe it's different with dwarfs and runes than humans and text, but according to the rules as written there is no difference.

I'm a bit torn.

I see what you say about "expected to read" in adventures. Another example is that in Gathering Storm the Engel Farm has a sign saying "Engle Farm". What are a bunch of hill billy peasants doing with a sign in writing? Were they trying to put on airs for the neighbours (well the Engles apparently did get too 'refined' for their own good)? I suspect such touches are adventure-writers slipping and forgetting themselves when they do this and editors not catching it (what editors not catching something in an RPG product, shocking). The problem is not assuming at least one person in adventuring party can read, it's assuming that writing was used to begin with.

On the other hand, for my taste, I'm good thematically with the notion of Read/Write being part of Education Advanced Skill, and typical thug, mercenary, tradesman being illiterate. It feels right to me that most can't in the grim, perilous world - that some poor idiots are sent to deliver a message that they can't read that says "of course it will be a suicide mission, send the idiots who brought the note on it". Wizards don't get free Education but pretty much have to spend point on opening skill at least in order to be plausible.

Generally, I suggest it depends on how GM wants to present world, the tone and the focus of adventures (espionage heavy skullduggery in city needing more literacy than beastman bashing in the woods). In any event, I would let most PC's with an Int of 3+ be able to at least sign their name (Int 2's can just "make their mark").

Rob

The ability to write your own name and a word like 'farm' is a fairly low bar to define someone as literate. The fact is that ability at this level could be fairly common in a setting period like the Empire.

I've been running it that way myself. Everyone can read everyday things that allow them to get by in life. They need Education (I make it acquired rather than trained) to read anything more in depth.

Just because a modern day illiterate knows that a Stop sign says, "stop", doesn't mean he can read.

The term illiterate is prerogative and ultimately not very useful.

There are levels of literacy. Recognising the word 'stop' on a sign indicates a very basic level - he has seen and understood - he has read it.

Unlike a roleplaying game, in Real Life there is no quantization of skills.

A forger does not *have* to be literate to do his job. He really just needs to be able to copy example writing and/or seals. It's pretty obvious what are signatures, so he washes out the old signature and copies the new signature from a different document. Does literacy help? Sure, but it isn't required to be a forger.

A forger in the Old World is probably trying to forge seals and documents relating to specific circumstances - not understanding what an original example actually says could be disasterous.

dvang said:

Sorry, I don't agree one bit. There is no way you can forge something that will hold up to scrutiny without being able to write or read. I'd also say that if a forger knows how to copy a text perfectly, he'd have to quite strange to not have picked up the skill of reading/writing in the process of learning to copy stuff.

But I guess it just comes down to what level of reading/writing we think constitutes literacy, I'm fine with Old world-citizens being illiterate if that means that they can read signs and simple notes.

The fact is that a fair percentage of people pick up reading very, very easily. As we live in an age of mass education we rarely see it, but in the 3rd world many people are literate without any formal learning. It's like learning a spoken language, many people can just do it, seamingly via osmosis...

The Old World has the printing press. The written word surrounds urban people. As I've stated before, the 4 advance bar to literacy for most characters seems too high.

Just a thought: You could probably make a "Mostly Literate" talent.

Off the top of my head, I'd call it a Focus talent. A character with this talent is considered literate whenever they've got it slotted in. But since it has to be slotted in, it would represent a lower level of literacy... you can read, but it's not completely natural for you, and you have to concentrate and focus on it to do so. You're perhaps a little slow at it, and is really hard to do if there's distractions or complications going on (because they might require your talent slots being used for some other bonus or effect).

This would make functional literacy reasonably cheap (1 xp) without taking too much away from the actual Education skill.

Many actual scribes in the Middle Ages couldn't read, yet they "wrote" books by copying texts, simulating writing. It doesn't require someone to read to copy text from one document to another.

If a forger knows that Letter X is an incriminating letter, and that Letter Y has the signature of the guard captain, a forger could copy the signature from Letter Y onto Letter X ... without needing to read any of it. Does it help for him to read? Certainly. Is it dangerous to forge something without knowing how to read? Yes, if he's forging letters, it's probably pretty dangerous unless you have a trustworthy associate that can read for you. It's not required, though. As mentioned, though, there is also the forging of seals, which does not require reading at all.

Really, a forger is more of an artist than a scribe. They need their pieces to LOOK real more than anything else.

dvang said:

This is at best overstated. Illiterate scribes were far from typical even in the earliest medieval period. The ultra-clear script called Capitalis Rustica (1st-9th) may have allowed some illiterate scribes. Although it may have been a desire to avoid scriptual errors in holy texts - which was a driving concern in the period.

Analysis of the texts suggests literate scribes as the errors tend to be those that a literate person would make - rephrasing, word substitution, spelling different (but still valid).

After this scripts become increasingly stylized, making an illiterate scribe implausible. This stylization of the scripts mirrors the growth of literate culture in general through the period.

dvang said:

This cannot be said enough, especially because in the Empire, a document is made official by more than a signature.

I like the "Mostly Literate" talent idea.

jh

I plan on treating 'basic literacy' kind of like the starting active defense cards - if your character's starting Int is 3 or higher, they begin with very basic literacy (equivalent to that of a child beginning grade school). If not, they simply cannot read until they become Educated.

Yes, we're missing a skill here. not everybody can read and write in the Old World. So You can do only two thing:

- lets say that everybody who has Education can read and write

- lets say that every players character who has Int 2 or higher can also do that (but not so good)

Those are the only 2 options that You have for PC and NPC characters in my opinion. That my home rule and I will stick with it as long as a official errata about this won't come out.

I think the Talant idea is excellent. So there's my version.