Played the first couple of games today using some cards from illyrio's Gift, and have a bit of a query about this one.

I was playing as Targaryen against Stark, and the Stark player attached dubious loyalties to one of my characters (don't remember which)

Stark then initiated a military challenge, which I defended (unsuccessfully) with the card that had dubious loyalties on it.

My question is - can I kill that character as the claim for the military challenge, and if so, does that stop the Stark player taking control of it.

how about if the attacker was deadly, and this was the sole defender?

Do you want the technical answer, or do you want the end result?

The end result : If the attached character is killed for claim or dies for Deadly, it will be dead before your opponent can take control of it with Dubious Loyalties.

The technicalities : Claim is always settled before any player can play Responses to winning the challenge. Similarly, Deadly will always be resolved before any player can play Responses to winning the challenge. Since the "take control" effect of Dubious Loyalties is a standard Response effect, claim and Deadly will always give the controller of the attached character the chance to kill the character before the Response can actually be used. Now, getting really technical, the attachment's controller can still trigger the effect and take control of the attached character even after it has been killed. That's part of the moribund rules. Now, the control change doesn't make the character live again, so it will still be sent to (the owner's) dead pile when all the Responses have been played, but you can still do it. There may even be some instances, like when the character has an "after you win a challenge" kind of Response - or has enough power on it to get the attachment's controller to 15, where this would be a good idea.

So you see, there is a practical end result (killing the character for claim or Deadly pretty well stops the attachment's controller from getting the character in any useful way), but there are some timing technicalities here that could be leveraged to great effect in the right circumstance.

So the person taking control could also possibly save the character?

Boreas said:

Boreas said:

Boreas said:

So here's an example that just came to me. If I am a Stark player and play Dubious Loyalties on The Red Viper (PotS), then proceed to win, let's say a Military challenge against my Martell opponent, the Martell player could simply choose The Red Viper for claim in order to prevent me from having him. Well say that I decide to trigger Dubious Loyalties while the Red Viper is moribund in order to take control of him.

Here's the kicker, but I think I might already know the answer. If I am this very same Stark player, and all the above takes place and my revealed plot card is Taste for Blood, would the Red Viper still die?

If asked to to make the ruling today, I would probably say that since he was killed while in the Martell player's control, he would still go to the dead pile of the Martell player even though the Stark player currently has control, even with the constant effect of Taste for Blood.

Is that a correct ruling?

Syd said:

It's not a question of "would the Viper still die" because he was already dead when you took control of him. The "cannot be killed" of the plot cannot be applied to something that is already dead. Once the Viper is dead, you may be able to take control of him "on the way out," but you cannot retroactively "un-kill" him "on the way out."

The ruling was correct. He was dead when the Stark player took control, so the plot is inapplicable and the Viper ends up in the dead pile (of his owner).

Doesn't Power of Blood affect the Viper, even if he's controlled by your opponent? Your opponent could not choose the Viper to die because of a lost military challenge.

ktom said:

I'd still consider this a great scenario... you still lose the use of a character, but by saving it... I gain one.

eloooooooi said:

Yes, Power of Blood affects all Noble characters in play, not just the ones you control.

Good call Jester. Makes me want to build in some tricks to get control of characters using the plot as a block to the claim. Also, it occurred to me that this attachment is a good way to take control of Coldhands, since he is forced to participate.

Syd said:

I think you will often find this attachment turn into an "I just chose your claim" thing since there really aren't a lot of ways to force an opponent's character to participate.