hi i was thinking about the bonus attack for ambush, and i want to ask something about that.

Well if you hide somewhere and ambush someone you recieve a +30 to the attack but my question is, if the enemy cant see where are you hidding, will you get a bonus after the ambush for your next attack?, what do you thing about that?

After the Surprise round, you would roll Initiative, and if the Ambushers beat the Ambushees' Initiative, they get the bonus on the next round, too. Basically, the bonus applies to attacking people who are unaware that they are under attack. After combat has begun, the Ambushees are aware that they are under attack when their Initiative comes up- even if they still can't see exactly where it is coming from.

At least, I think that's how it works- I don't have the rulebook handy, and I have been known to conflate DH rules with those from D&D ...

yea i know that the bonus for ambush is gone after the first attack but, what about if you are hidden and shooting with a silencer? and the enemy do not pass the roll to see you?, will you give a bonus attack for that?

Nope, they wouldn't gain a bonus for that, because now the enemy know they are being attacked, and will naturally be more aware of attacks and carrying out normal evasive techniques, which would remove the bonus you get for a Surprise Attack regardless of whether they know where you are or not.

The only bonus Silencers really give you are 1) if you pick off one person out of sight of everyone else, then chances are they won't spot you, and 2) even if they do see the person die, and they fail their detection test, they know that they are being attacked, but can't return fire.

Them not being able to return fire is a lot more useful than a modifier you can fairly easily get by firing on full auto, aiming, etc. Remember you can only have a max modifier of +/-60.

jack_px said:

Here's how I would rule on that: I would not allow a second suprise round/attack, since the target now knows that they are being fired upon. I would, however, give the shooter the +30 bonus to his attack roll for the target being "unaware", since the target still doesn't know where the attacks are coming from.

Hope that helps.

And most importantly of all: No dodging shots you don't see coming

Darth Smeg said:

Ah yes. Forgot to mention that. Good call.

Adeptus-B said:

D'oh! I just looked it up in the DH rulebook, and it says that Surprise applies only on the first round of combat, period. My bad- I was quoting the D&D rules... Although I do like those rules better, and will probably continue to use them as "house rules"...

Darth Smeg said:

Is that an official rule, because it seems to me dodge is just you ducking and diving trying to make yourself harder to hit. There is no way you can dodge a bullet, let alone dodge a las shot (because by the time you see it, it has already hit you), by seeing it coming.

To me when you are dodging you are just acting evasively to present a harder target. So as long as you are aware you might be attacked and thus acting evasively you should get a dodge opportunity.

NTLBagpuss said:

It most certainly is, page 193, under dodge. After all why would you be acting evasively if you didn'tknow you were under attack?

Face Eater said:

My point is it is only necessary to know you are under attack to be able to dodge, you do not need to know exactly where that attack is coming from to act evasively. The poster I was replying to seemed to imply that even if you know you are under attack if you don't see the shot coming you cannot dodge it.

I was point out that you cannot see an attack coming and hope to dodge it (except thrown projecticles), solid projectiles travel faster than the speed of sound, even if you could see the muzzel flash it travels far faster than the reaction time of a human, and las weapons travel at the speed of light so if you see the muzzel flash then it has already hit you. Dodge cannot represent seeing and attack and moving out of it's way (except for thrown projectiles which move much slower), so it must just be from moving evasively which you can do if you know a sniper is attacking you even if you don't know where that sniper is.

So while you wouldn't get dodge against the first shot fired by a sniper, you could certainly use it against follow up attacks even if the sniper had remained hidden.

Getting into cover and moving from cover to cover represents the evasive maneuvers that are consistent with movement while under fire but unable to see the firers. Dodging is more representative of seeing the enemy pointing a weapon at you and realizing that you need to move under duress against that specific person/thing because he/she/it is targeting you specifically. Otherwise, why a person randomly juking and jiving really wouldn't be doing his- or herself any favors as the unseen firer just waits until the dodgee builds a pattern and then they compensate.

Think of combat more as within the 5 seconds of every round, each character isn't standing still waiting to be shot at, swung at, or the waiting on the storyteller to call on them to do an action. Within those 5 seconds, each person is practically doing the same thing at the same time and the swinging of weapons or pulling of triggers is them finding an opening to fire or swing against people or things moving in and out of sight, in and out of cover, or hesitating in that one instant of movement.

While it can be debated, I think the "target unaware" signifies a completely oblivious defender and not just one that cannot see the attacker or the attack. For the latter, just disallowing dodge should be enough.