Hi thar.

Inspired by this thread, forum.rpg.net/showthread.php on rpg.net I've been mulling over fight or flight scenarios in Dark Heresy. The backdrop is quite distinct; on one side we have the much feared Inquisition, an organisation which name puts the fear of the Emperor in guilty and innocent alike. Surely better to fight to the last than to allow yourself to be captured by their agents? On the other side we have the vile, fanatical chaos cultist who in all likelihood will be subject to things far, far worse than the Inquisition will ever do to them - should they break and run.

Of course, it's not always that black and white, even in the Calixis sector. Acolytes will frequently, perhaps generally work covertly. Their enemies will just as frequently be your average low-life thug, hiver scum, Arbites squad, ganger and what not. Some only to ready to turn tail and live to fight another day.

Regardless, since the answer of "it depends" isn't very satisfying I'd like to delve deeper into the subject. As we all know, the universe of 40K is very grim, and very dark. Life is worth next to nothing.

Is the average (I know, I know, such a thing can't really be said to exist but work with me here...) hiver/colonist/worker/citizen and the like tougher, harder and more accustomed to sudden violence and to defend themselves, than say your average earthling? Or have they already accepted their place in the galaxy as one filled with pain, mind-numbingly hard work and rightful oppression from their betters, readily allowing themselves to be herded this way and that? And what of the criminals? And what of the enforcers?

Once, long ago, when I ran Edge of Darkness, one of the PCs were playing your average trigger happy lone wolf. You know the type. Anyways, in order to get information he grabbed a lonely hab-worker, pushed him against nearest wall and threatened him with his gun. When the PC turned his back I had the hab-worker flee for his life down the stairs and out on the street, where he was promptly gunned down by the PC.

The problem was that the player felt that this behavior was so irrational and unlikely (Who runs with a gun in their face?!?) that it toally broke his immersion and almost the game. In general I tried to play most NPCs as relatively tough, Emperor-fearing inhabitants of a hellish environment and this jarred against what the players expected from their behavior. Almost to the point that it seemed to be a bad case of deathmatch between the GM and the Players.

Your PC is being a bit of a knob, though at least you know if it ever comes down to one of those unwinnable, direct confrontations at least he'll die because he's too dumb to run

I tend to think on my feet a lot when running combat, establish the motivation level for NPCs quickly and reasons they'll stick it out or bugger off if given a choice, as much as there is a bit of fuss about WH40K being fighty, the majority of the peons in it aren't trained combat troops and just don't want to die! Next time your character scrags some poor peon, make sure the peon is strapped up with a few kilos of really expensive drugs and then you've got an instant side adventure of PC's being hunted for their skins by people who WILL kill their arses in lame, cruel and terrible ways.

I agree with your decision to have the hab-prol run for his life. Maybe hardened Underhivers would be so enured to violence that they wouldn't blink at having a gun pointed in their face, but I picture the the average hapless Imperial citizen as being not too different from the avereage Medieval peasant- sure they are surrounded by the grim prospect of Death at every turn, but that doesn't make them especially brave...

It actually confuses me to no end how your player could think that someone WOULDN'T run given the chance when a gun was pushed into his face... You definitely made the right call. Further, if it was me GMing, I would have had the local Magistratum investigate and imprison the 'lone wolf'. Granted in Edge of Darkness the police are evil as well, so maybe not in that specific adventure... But then again, if they did, and the party pulled a 'We're with the Inquisition' line to get out of it, then the Logicians would be tipped off, and therefore call for a different line to the adventure...

PC actions always have consequences.

You did the right thing. I don't know many people who, if given the chance, wouldn't run from someone threatening them with a gun. Either that, or collapse to the floor begging not to be killed.

Your player sounds like a bit of a ****. You should probably make some consequences for him acting like that.

People are going to react differently depending upon where they live and grew up. A lowly hab worker is not going to behave the same way as some lower hive ganger, who is not going to behave the same way as someone who grew up on an agricultural world, or a pleasure world. All people in the Imperium - at least those still a somewhat active part of it - are indoctrinated into the faith of the God Emperor and brainwashed to some extent; generally they are used to being oppressed and working long, thankless hours; they fear the warp, cheer the distant wars they are told are for the good of mankind, and do what they can to stay alive - but that is about it ... they are not rolled off an assembly line and to expect two people from very different planets to respond the same way to everything is frankly stupid.

Me, I would have had the npc react the same way - if he was given the opportunity to run, run! The player should have faced the possibility of being imprisoned for shooting the man. Generally it isn't good business to just let people go around shooting your workers on the street, no matter how little you care about the individuals themselves. Besides which, that raises red flags about dangerous and unpredictable people in the area.

To put it bluntly, you're Player's response to the runner was wrong and if the man reacting in a way he didn't expect came that close to derailing the game for him, he has grown too complacent and used to getting things his way.

There are a number of possible reactions to extreme stress. Fight is one, flight is one, freezing up is another. Any are plausible but it does come down to the personality of the NPC.

For what it's worth, I think having that NPC try and make a break for it made sense. Who would stick around to be shot by obvious criminals?

I look to the conduct of people in the third world when it comes to the actions of your normal every day imperial citizen. People in these societies who live do so because they know when to run. The guy in your scenario saw a chance to get the hell out of there and he took it.

You made the right call.

Thank you for your comments. While it is nice that you agree with how my NPC reacted I did not come here for reassurance. I guess it was my mistake to add that as an example. I am more interested in the state of mind of the general NPC in Dark Heresy. Before going further I would also like to take this moment to say that I know that there is no such thing as a general anything in 40K. Personally I still think there is value to be had discussing these things from a general viewpoint. I respect the, no doubt, many people who feel otherwise but would kindly ask them to just move along.

I once heard a historian describe how an accepted past-time during the middle ages (or there about) was to put a few cats in a bag and hit the bag with a stick, just for laughs and kicks. These days we would be appaled at this type of behavior and likely call the cops on the spot. The historians explanation, or at least an attempt to begin to understand, to this behavior was that during these times there was no way to reliably kill pain. Pain for the modern man is something very unpleasant and unwanted and huge sums and resources are used up to prevent it to the extent that we do not really need to feel pain anymore (in the rich parts of the world at least).

For the average man during the middle ages pain was something that came natural, be it tooth-ache, child birth, sickness, hard labour and the like. Pain was a companion of life, to live was to hurt (something which the church also implied or flat out stated). This in turn (together with a host of other things) desensitised them to the pain of the cats in the bag until it became entertainment rather than animal abuse.

Now, before anyone jump at my throat let me quickly say that I have no idea if this line of reasoning is valid or not. It seems reasonable enough to me although I can also see things that does not make sense with the argument as well (one could argue that it is the same tired division between the "civlised" man on one hand and the savage on the other, to name but one). That's not the point I am trying to make, to me this shows an interesting difference of perspectives.

How does certain things, for lack of a better word, change normal peoples outlook on life? With the exception of a very few pleasure worlds, does the average 40K-inhabitant live in a grimdark world that makes him more prone to, or accepting of, violence than us (you and I that read this). Is he more likely do go down fighting with an oath to the Emperor on his lips, or is he meek and indoctrinated?

I am personally leaning towards that the average inhabitant of the 40K-universe indeed is tougher and more readily accepts and deals out violence than the average present day inhabitant.

Your opinion is appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to read (and sorry for my english).

I don't think the Imperial citizen on average is any more violent than we are. Certainly the Imperium is always at war. But many planets are not involved in wars directly. The Imperium is always involved in a serious war because it's so large, not because that's the lot of every single citizen. Regardless during wars citizens don't all start beating each other up on a regular basis. If anything they band together to defeat their enemy. The Imperium isn't lawless, far from it.

How tough a citizen is depends entirely on their own life. Whole worlds are dedicated to producing food for other worlds. Those aren't rough tough worlds they're abundantly fertile world where their entire life is spent growing things, not indulging in Necromundan gang wars (which isn't what everyone on Necromunda does!).

SmokedHalibut said:

On the other hand you could just as easily say that the farmers life is the original "rough and tough" life. Perhaps with a higher life expectancy than a Necromundan ganger but still....

I believe that although the normal imperial citizen is more accustomed to violence, that doesnt mean they are more tougher or violent , i mean, they are not potential space marines each

They are as all humans, no matter what happen, they will see to survive. all are indoctrinated to follow rules, but , taken your example of medieval ages, you said that in "that" time they found funny to beat the cats. But you dont realize that today, also, there is people that find fun to beat and tortures animals, and people, and i am sure in that time also was people that didnt like to kill animals too.

Humans are the same, dont change too much, they just change for the sake of the society, or the influence of it.

Try to see Warhammer 40000 as the middle ages, but in the future. In the middle ages, the church controlled all, indoctrinating that you should care for the soul, not for the body, but even then existed corrupt people, and abusers, and also monks and saints.

If church says they will do a crusade to holy land, some peasants will recruit out of faith, guilt, redemption, ambition, hate, psichopatic dissorder, etc.

So is in the warhammer 40000 world. Your peasant in your story did what was ok for HIM, maybe if the same happens situation happens with another peasant, it will react violent, or even shifty, as trying to set the PC atrap , and make other people bet them.

Maybe the peasant knows "some" people that brings "protection" for a price, and they will not like to see that another bully is taking its time in their territory.

Human nature is unique, and if your player dont understand that, explain it, this is a setting, as in reality, nothing is granted.

Hell, even Space Marines that are indoctrinated, can turn to Chaos, and for their own reasons.

Have fun!