Hi folks.

Just recently picked up WHFRP and we played a quick test session over the weekend. So far, I *really* like the feel of the game! It feels different enough from other RPGs to be refreshing and it keeps enough of the elements from 'old school' RPGs to keep us true to our roots.

Anyways, I have a few questions about the way things work to make sure we have it down because a few things arent clear:

1) Spells/Spellcasting. Ok, according to the FAQ, unless an Action is listed as 'Vs Defense', it's default Difficulty is 0d. OK, that makes sense, but is that something that changed from the way the game was originally intended for some reason (ie, on release)? I ask because comparing some of the spells, its make a heck of a lot more sense to take the non 'Vs' spells! For example:

Magic Dart: 3 power, 1 black die added for difficult and that's it. There is no Challenge die (due to the FAQ) and the target gets no defense dice (regardless of his natural defense). Looking at the effects, you will likely do 3+Int Damage (only 1 success needed) and with almost no negative dice, it will be fairly easy for most characters to get the double boon result for ignoring the targets armor soak value. You can also get a crit on a Sigmar

compared to, say:

Shooting Star: 4 power,1 black die for difficulty, will do 3+Int damage on a success and can do 5+Int on 2 successes. A boon can allow a recharge token to be removed. BUT it's vs Target Defense, meaning you automatically add in a Challenge (purple) die in addition to the standard black for difficulty AND any additional black dice for target defense(!!!). Sooo, what that means is that you are FAR FAR less likely to accomplish anything with this spell than with Magic Dart and it's likely that even if you succeed for the max, the Dart will accomplish the same thing due to the high potential to ignore armor soak.

Granted the Magic Dart has a medium range limit (are all other spells unlimited? I havent seen a range for them yet) and can add a Challenge die while engaged, but that hardly seems to be a problem since you can always choose to free Manoeuver away out of any engagements.

On top of that, the Shooting Star has 4 recharge to 0 for Magic Dart AND you have to 'buy' it with an Action point (unlike Magic Dart which I assume is free to an Apprentice?).

So what are we missing here? Why would someone want to spend the point on Shooting Star when in most cases, Magic Dart is just as good or better? It seems to me that the default difficult for all 'attack' spells should have stayed at 1d. Yes, you can contrive a situation where SS is potentially better, but in the vast majority of cases it is going to be far worse due to all of the extra 'bad' dice added in every time it's used.

This is just the first example we came across, but I'm sure there will be other disparities due to the 'Vs Defense' or not issue.

Other questions:

Can a non-'caster' career buy the Channelling/Favor actions and/or the spells/blessings? If so, are there any 'mechanical' penalties outside of not having the Order-type bonus? How do you get access to the Basic magic actions? Can say, a scribe, purchase the Channeling Action and Magic Dart?

Do monsters have access to the Basic Action cards? For example, the party runs into a group of Goblins and Orcs. Can the Goblins Parry? Or Block? Or Dodge? Do they have Guarded Positions? The creature rules seem to imply that they do, but not much info is given on how they function. Also, in the Gathering Storm book, one set of monsters specifically calls out that they have access to Parry, Block, and Guarded Position, leading me to believe that these might not be default actions available?

I know we had more questions, but I'm still re-reading through the rules again and I'm sure I have a few more things to ask in the near future (we are looking to play again tomorrow and I'd like to a firm handle on the mechanics if possible).

Thanks in advance for any help or input on the above!

Uncle_Joe said:

Nope, I allow magic dart to allow as it is. Ranged attackers usually have a number of 'ignore armor' attacks, and it usually doesn't mean that much unless they are fighting a Chaos Warrior, but even then, I believe he's a toughness 6, so would only take 2-3 damage. Anyhow, it really isn't that bad. It's some good bread and butter for an otherwise combat weak class.

As an example, in the last game I ran, the group encountered a small hamlet being attacked by beastmen raiders. This was taking place across a river. Once the group had to cross (beastmen took cover inside the peoples homes for some easy snacking), the wizard flies over and magic darts a beastmen. The beastmen get angry at this and opt to ignore the Priest of Sigmar to tend to this threat. They take a couple fatigue (equals wounds) running to him, then attack, easily hit, and almost killed him. Thanks to the Waywatcher he lived...but was close. Also note: I use a house rule on how I interpret the maneuver to disengage. I call it that it is one maneuver to disengage from EACH opponent beyond the equal number to friendlies in the engagement (so if there are three enemy, two friendly, it takes two actions to leave it)...anyhow....

Uncle_Joe said:

Non-caster I THINK, can buy the channeling and curry favor. If a non-sanctioned wizard casts a spell, then witchhunters are always looking for someone hang and burn...and they will, fast. As to currying favor - though they can buy the card, it really is up to the fickle god if they get anything for their efforts. If a Sigmarite is cowaring from Chaos and only trying to buff his friends soak values, then Sigmar can say, "no". However, I'm not possitive if non-casters can buy it...

All mosters, if they meet the requirements, have the basic actions. You may give them one non-basic action for each expertise dice they have as well.

Judex said:

Hi, thanks for the input, but I'm a little confused by what ya mean here? I dont have any problem with Magic Dart or how effective it is per se, but I just wonder about it's relation to other 'attack' spells. It seems to be better due the lack of a Challenge die (and other defenses) and it's free (Basic Action) and has no Recharge. So I'm just wondering why people would be encouraged to use other spells when the 'basic' one is so much better in many ways?

Aside from the lack of the range limit that Magic Dart has, Shooting Star looks underpowered if you are just looking at damage dealing potential; however, you can't overlook the importance of boon effects. Banes and Boons can still be triggered even if the corresponding action fails. In some cases, the effect only modifies the damage dealt by a success, in which case they aren't triggered, but other effects, like Shooting Star's one Boon effect of adding or removing a recharge token from any of your actions, is highly probable, even when the "attack" part misses. That can make one of your other spells recharge faster, or extend the duration of any "remains in effect while recharging" spell you've already cast (Curse, for example). The fact that it may also do damage could be seen as a bonus. That's not saying that Shooting Star is a better option than other Rank 1 Celestial spells, but you have to think outside the box with a lot of the action cards.

I guess that's true too. Magic Dart is classifed as 'Petty magic' and it just seems like its the most efficient attack spell we can find due to the FAQ. It kinda makes me wonder if Magic Dart is printed incorrectly and should be 'Vs Def'. It just doesnt seem to make a lot of sense that a 'Petty Magic' spell is so good at hurting heavily defended targets (who have no recourse to defend themselves either).

Obviously we can (and prolly will) House Rule it, but I just wanted to make sure I wasnt missing something in the mechanics first. I'm just going to guess that the FAQ was put in place for things like Channelling or spell like Curse or Omen and 'attack' spells like Magic Dart are probably still supposed to have the default 1d (challenge) + defenses. But maybe not? I think that is the one thing that is frustrating us with this game is that there are a lot of ambiguities in the rules and not a lot of official answers forthcoming.

Anywho, thanks for the input! We'll continue to look at the other effects that spells can generate too, but I'm not too hopeful that what we have will outshine the Petty Magic Dart. ;p

There is a Grey Apprentice in my group who uses Magic Dart and believe me the spell is not that powerful - WIth anything but the smallest monsters, even if it is ignoring armour, it only deals around 3 or 4 points on average (int of 4+3 - toughness of (3 or 4)). With armour this plummets to 1 or 2 points of damage.

It is comparable to an average attack from a combat type using a hand weapon and a basic melee attack.

Then there's the whole having to draw power... not a problem when first cast granted, but if the combat goes on for a bit and other spells have been cast, and then purple dice for quick cast if this is done... which can all cause delays or make the casting less sucessful (not to mention adding the risk of miscasts...)

All in all, I haven't found Magic Dart to be overpowered or unbalanced as a petty spell at all.

Of course, that's in my game and others may have had a different experience.

Oh, no I dont think it's too 'powerful' at all. It does less damage on average than many other ranged attacks vs 'normal' opponents. But it does seem to be a pretty good alternative to many of the other 'attack' spells out there in terms off effectiveness.

I dunno, I guess with it being 'Petty magic' and a Basic action, I was kind of expecting it to be clearly inferior to other 'purchased' cards that are similar (much like Basic Melee Attack is generally inferior to many other melee cards). In the end, it's not a big deal I just wasn't sure if we were missing something in the resolution mechanics.

Uncle_Joe said:

The GM is allowed to spend aggression to make things harder on player checks, so you can add some extra black dice at least (even though neither the basic defense nor active defenses can be used). In principle you could also allow expertise to be spent to add challenge dice, but that's a house rule.

I've just had a Player start with a wizard and he was Magic Darting lots - but as noted Quickcasting after the first one - meaning he did have a challenge die. The threat of chaos star miscasts then adds the spice (he got them twice). As noted, monster Soak reducing damage meant it wasn't making the other PC's look useless at all, the elven archer was doing better damage as a rule. Wizard ended up switching to another spell to try for better results.

Another equalizer is considering only spells that are "Vs Defence" or similar types to be "attacks" eligible to inflict critical wounds on Comets (spells have no "critical rating" the way weapons does. I don't see a direct reference to critical wounds from spells (other than if spell text says it) and they are generally said to result from "attacks". Only those attacks defenders can use active defences against etc. can inflict criticals on them this way is also a balance issues for PC's being subjected to attacks.