So, once again the group is divided.

Tetherys' Hero Ability states: " Tetherys may change her target after rolling for an attack."

She initially attacked a Shade which has the Stealth ability. She rolled an "X" on the Stealth die. She then changed her target to a Beastman which does not have the Stealth ability.

One side said that her attack was a miss from the Stealth die and that she couldn't change her target.

The other side said that she is allowed to change her target because the Beastman is not affected by the Stealth die.

Nerd drama ensued.

Thoughts?

Technically any X rolled in your roll is an automatic miss for the whole attack... right?

That's an interesting one! But - I want to fall on the Miss side of the fence... as there was still a miss as a PART of the attack.

Kain_Dragoon said:

Changing her target is independent of the roll . She is allowed to change her target, period - even if it was a miss on the Blue dice!

After the change of target, there is an X on the stealth die but (where Soylent Green went wrong) Stealth Die Xs only count against stealthy figures .
ToI pg7
...but the stealth die’s result is used only for the figures that currently have Stealth.
(It is a bit more complicated than that because of the way the paragraph is set up, but I think that this section sets a very strong precedent that can be carried over as a general rule, not just for attacks that affect multiple figures). Technically the above quote is referenced for attacks that affect multiple figures, so wouldn't actually count for this one-figure-attack. But that is pushing technicality too far IMO.
And it is not like Tetherys couldn't use the boost...

The Beastman does not have Stealth and is not affected by the Stealth die. The attack hits the Beastman.

PS Nerd drama? But they didn't even argue over the right technicality. They were both wrong. Nerd failure!

Corbon said:

I just wanted some discussion on the situation that I asked. Not a judgement on what the situation was. Be nice.

I do agree with your side of the argument though, Corbon. I wish I could make it sink int their heads. lol

Kain_Dragoon said:

Err, it was a joke...

Even if you ruled that she couldn't change targets to the beastman after rolling an X on the stealth die, that would never matter again, unless one of your players makes a mistake: next time, Tetherys will target the beastman, and then change targets to the shade.

So the more important related issue is actually: if Tetherys declared her attack targeting the beastman, and therefore didn't roll a stealth die, could she then change targets to the shade and hit it without ever rolling the stealth die? If she can, then there's no reason for her to ever declare the initial attack as targeting a figure with Stealth (she can always target an empty space), so she can basically ignore Stealth on all attacks.

Given the way Stealth works on area attacks, the way I choose to generalize the rules is this: the stealth die is technically rolled on all attacks, but because it only affects figures with the Stealth ability, players don't need to bother rolling it until someone cares about the result. That means that Tetherys can always choose to roll the stealth die, and then hit an enemy with Stealth if it's blank or an enemy without Stealth if it's an X, but she still always needs to actually roll the die before she can hit a monster with Stealth.

That also covers cases where the area affected by the attack changes after the roll (e.g. by spending surges for Blast).

But the rules don't actually say that, so there's plenty of room for argument if you want to argue the point.

Corbon said:

Hmmm...yeah, sorry. That came out more harsh than what I intended. My apologies as well. I say "fail" all day long, I should of known better LOL

Antistone said:

Hmmm.....interesting food for thought. I love Descent. lol

Kain_Dragoon said:

Np.

Kain_Dragoon said:

As usual, Antistone does an outstanding job of explaining the issue. +1 to everything he said.

Corbon said:

Bah - I fell asleep thinking about this and second guessing... wondering if I should have looked at the rulebook before I posted.

Antistone said:

Read the FAQ, Antistone! You add the stealth die after switching targets or spending surges for blast.

FAQ :
Q: If a creature with Stealth is in a space added to an attack after all of the dice for that attack have been rolled (for example, when using surges to add Blast or when switching targets using Tetherys' ability ), do you then roll the Stealth die?
A: Yes.

The problem with always rolling the stealth die is that the result of the stealth die should not be known to the player before it matters. Tetherys is not allowed to know the stealth die is a hit before changing targets to the shade.

That answer tells us a lot less than it appears to. It rules out the possibility that you could hit a shade without ever rolling the stealth die at all, but if stuff that you do after rolling dice (such as allocating surges, or changing targets for Tetherys) can still be done after you roll the stealth die (which is part of the attack roll), then it's actually equivalent to my rule. And we all know how well the FAQ writers do with leading questions, anyway.

Even if you don't allow Tetherys to switch targets again after adding the stealth die, if you follow Corbon's reasoning that the stealth die only affects figures with Stealth, she can get the same equivalent effect by always declaring the initial attack targeting a figure with Stealth and then switching if the stealth die rolls an X. So it still doesn't change the practical result for her.

But sure, if you're determined to screw the heroes on this, you could conceivably rule that a single-target attack that rolls an X on the stealth die always misses AND that things that would normally be done after the attack roll can't be changed after the stealth die is added if it's added mid-attack, and I don't think the official rules would outright contradict you.

Antistone said:
That answer tells us a lot less than it appears to. It rules out the possibility that you could hit a shade without ever rolling the stealth die at all

What else does it appear to tell us? I didn't really get anything out of it other than that. (Well, I guess it also tells us that the attack sequence in this game is a mess since you can add a die to the roll in the middle of spending surges, but I'm not sure "the rules don't really make sense" is actually news.)

Antistone said:
Even if you don't allow Tetherys to switch targets again after adding the stealth die, if you follow Corbon's reasoning that the stealth die only affects figures with Stealth, she can get the same equivalent effect by always declaring the initial attack targeting a figure with Stealth and then switching if the stealth die rolls an X. So it still doesn't change the practical result for her.

I do follow Corbon's reasoning (see below). And yes, if you target the figure with Stealth first, you know the results of the Stealth die before making your decision. Your rule about the Stealth die may not allow anything (with Tetherys' ability) that wasn't already effectively possible, but it is a "dumbed-down" version as it does not punish bad play when a hero starts by targeting the non-Stealth figure.

Your rule does actually make a significant difference if you're thinking of spending surges to expand a blast radius in order to also hit a figure with Stealth, though. If you already know the Stealth die would be a miss, then you can freely spend those surges on something like Gauntlets of Power instead.

Antistone said:
But sure, if you're determined to screw the heroes on this, you could conceivably rule that a single-target attack that rolls an X on the stealth die always misses AND that things that would normally be done after the attack roll can't be changed after the stealth die is added if it's added mid-attack, and I don't think the official rules would outright contradict you.

Determined to screw the heroes? Where did that come from? I just reported what the FAQ says.

I agree with Corbon, though I'm not sure there's really any rules support either way. On the one hand, even if a die shows an X, that doesn't immediately end an attack - if it's an aimed attack, the dice can still be re-rolled. On the other hand, though, you only get to the point where surges and power enhancement are spent if you didn't roll an X. And the rules don't tell us where Tetherys' ability fits into the attack sequence. (Is it before or after Step 4?) I just think it "makes sense" to allow the switch even if the Stealth die misses.

Hi all,

Sorry if I'm being a little dense here, but I'd just like to get some clarification:

Say there's a breath/blast attack which targets say 3 models and 1 of them has stealth. The stealth-die comes up with an X, this means that only the one with stealth is missed and the others are still hit?

(There always seems to be another rule which I'm missing with this game, it's amazing!!)

Twak

mahkra said:

You appear to believe it tells us about the order of events; I'm not convinced it tells us anything other than that the stealth die must be used on such an attack. If the stealth die is still part of the attack roll, then that answer only means that you can't "get around" the stealth die, not that it is actually rolled in the middle of some other step of the attack sequence.

On the other hand, if it is rolled at a different step of the attack sequence, we are in sore need of clarification regarding what on earth that entails. Is it rolled after or during the step when we're spending surges or changing targets? If it's during that step, does that mean that decisions made as part of the same step but "before" the stealth roll are "locked in", even though we're still in the step where we're in the process of determining them? Can the stealth die be rerolled (e.g. with a dodge) if it's only added as a result of spending surges, which doesn't happen until after all rerolls take place? If you're correct about the intent, it's badly underdefined, and we'd need to make up a bunch of the details out of whole cloth in order to use it at all.

mahkra said:

I don't think that removing a "mother, may I?" step constitutes "dumbing down" the gameplay so much as "streamlining" it. That's not some kind of tactical trade-off or in any way dependent on circumstances, it's just a magical incantation you need to remember to recite on every single attack ("I attack something with Stealth, if possible") or you get arbitrarily penalized.

mahkra said:

Just a hypothetical. I meant "if one is determined to screw the heroes", not actually you, mahkra, specifically.

mahkra said:

Interesting tangent: you may recall several threads mentioning the fact that you're supposed to determine whether an attack hits in step 4, but the determination is dependent upon spending surges and power enhancements, which doesn't happen until step 5? Well, it turns out that on the cover of the quest guide , steps 4 and 5 are reversed, with "spend surges and enhancements" coming before "determine attack success".

Which means that referring to one of the steps as "step 4" is actually somewhat ambiguous...

twak2 said:

Yes, assuming there's no other reason for the attack to miss.

Tomb of Ice rules, page 7: "When a single attack roll would affect multiple figures (for example, an attack using Blast, Breath, or Sweep), and any of those figures have Stealth, a single stealth die is included in the attack roll, but the stealth die’s result is used only for the figures that currently have Stealth."

Antistone said:

Ah, I see. Well, the FAQ entry actually does define the timing, though admittedly that's part of the leading question rather than part of the answer. I agree 100% with your second paragraph, especially the bold parts above.

Antistone said:

It's really not that different from having to remember to re-equip or use a "start of turn" item before you start moving, or any number of other things that must arbitrarily be done in a certain order. And if the best tactic is the same every time, it shouldn't be hard to remember.

I agree though that it doesn't really matter for Tetherys, though it is significant for Blast.

Antistone said:

I had forgotten about that. Yet another reason to think the attack sequence as a whole is underdefined / ambiguous.

mahkra said:

The word "then" can imply timing, or it can merely imply consequence (if...then...).

mahkra said:

Yes it is, because those things are actual choices that you might legitimately choose not to do, not things that you're a fool if you don't do every single time.

Start-of-turn things that you automatically want to do every time, such as refreshing cards or rolling to remove Web tokens, are mandatory . What you're suggesting would be more like "if a player forgets to physically untap his cards at the start of his turn, then they don't get refreshed, so he can't use them that turn."

Antistone said:

Even if you consider it as an if... then statement, you need the "if" before you can have the "then". The cause must come first in order to trigger the effect.

I have no problem with a healthy degree of skepticism based on the leading question, though.

Antistone said:

Start-of-turn things you *don't* want to do are mandatory, too, like rolling to take damage from tokens. I'm not really sure how that's relevant.

I agree that the smart move is to target the figure with Stealth first, but it's certainly not mandatory to do so.

Maybe a better example would be a hero that declares a Ready action but forgets to place his order before ending his turn. If he realizes during the OL's turn that he never placed an order, can he place his order at that time? (Yes, there's a choice of 4 orders, but there could also be a choice of which figure with Stealth to attack.)

The amount of game time players are willing to "rewind" due to a mistake varies, and generally depends on the circumstances, but I would never silently allow a hero to accidentally end his turn without placing his order if I noticed it. And even that is something that could theoretically be done intentionally - for example, if you have a way to place an order later on (e.g. another hero with Leadership) and it's really critical to get more information before selecting the order you want to place, for some reason.

And the choice of which figure with Stealth Tetherys attacks does NOT matter, because she can change the target to anything she wants after the roll. In my games, when someone plays Tetherys, they usually declare their attacks by literally saying "I attack something ," because it makes absolutely no difference what the initial declared target is when it's just going to be retroactively changed after the roll. If we adopted your interpretation of the FAQ ruling for some reason, they would literally say "I attack something with Stealth ," and no one would complain.