Two options for Female Space Marines

By Maxim C. Gatling, in Deathwatch

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Atheosis said:

Hyperbole aside, the chapters that have "dubious" histories or mutations, and have seconded marines to Deathwatch, all keep their dirty little secrets, well secret. So if you want to go out of your way to create a chapter that has battle sisters (wow does that sound dumb) they still aren't going to second them to Deathwatch. Just like Blood Angels don't second those who suffer heavily from the Red Thirst and Space Wolves don't second those with pronounced canis helix mutations. Beyond that the whole cursed founding appraoch to try and create a chapter that contradicts canon is on thin ice from the consensus viewpoint of chapter design. It's almost as bad as the lost legion approach.

Seriously dude just stop trying to shoehorn in your ideas into the canon, and just rewrite it. It's more creatively honest and will make more sense in the long run. Your ideas of how to fit it into canon are far-fetched at best.

Oh and by the way, neither the Mortifactors nor Black Dragons have ever seconded marines to Deathwatch within canon.

Every Blood Angel suffers from the red thirst to one degree or another. Every Space Wolf suffers from the canis helix to one degree or another. I didn't state they were sending those that had degenerated to ravening monsters.

I might point out that the consensus is NOT canon. (If it was, crusiers would still be 3 km long and have five to ten thousand crew) Further, if GW can use 21st founding to give us chapters of Space Marines who's regular battle brothers have superpowers far and away above the codex space marine (I'm looking at YOU Ghost Rider Marines, Wolverine Marines, Human Torch Marines), I see no reason that it cannot be used to justify female space marines.

Brother-Captain Artemis of the Mortifactors was a member of Deathwatch per the Inquisitor RPG. Though you were right, it was the Lamenters, not the Black Dragons, who were the other 21st founding chapter that contributed to Deathwatch.

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BaronIveagh said:

Atheosis said:

Hyperbole aside, the chapters that have "dubious" histories or mutations, and have seconded marines to Deathwatch, all keep their dirty little secrets, well secret. So if you want to go out of your way to create a chapter that has battle sisters (wow does that sound dumb) they still aren't going to second them to Deathwatch. Just like Blood Angels don't second those who suffer heavily from the Red Thirst and Space Wolves don't second those with pronounced canis helix mutations. Beyond that the whole cursed founding appraoch to try and create a chapter that contradicts canon is on thin ice from the consensus viewpoint of chapter design. It's almost as bad as the lost legion approach.

Seriously dude just stop trying to shoehorn in your ideas into the canon, and just rewrite it. It's more creatively honest and will make more sense in the long run. Your ideas of how to fit it into canon are far-fetched at best.

Oh and by the way, neither the Mortifactors nor Black Dragons have ever seconded marines to Deathwatch within canon.

Every Blood Angel suffers from the red thirst to one degree or another. Every Space Wolf suffers from the canis helix to one degree or another. I didn't state they were sending those that had degenerated to ravening monsters.

I might point out that the consensus is NOT canon. (If it was, crusiers would still be 3 km long and have five to ten thousand crew) Further, if GW can use 21st founding to give us chapters of Space Marines who's regular battle brothers have superpowers far and away above the codex space marine (I'm looking at YOU Ghost Rider Marines, Wolverine Marines, Human Torch Marines), I see no reason that it cannot be used to justify female space marines.

Brother-Captain Artemis of the Mortifactors was a member of Deathwatch per the Inquisitor RPG. Though you were right, it was the Lamenters, not the Black Dragons, who were the other 21st founding chapter that contributed to Deathwatch.

Seriously man, let it go...

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I like The way U think.

I have been playin RPG since im 12 years old(now 35*soupir*), my wife play RPG too and when it comes to rules if she wants to play a Space Marines then why not. RPG are there for us to have fun with friends, bottom line its just a game.

thanks

Lordes

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So are standard space wolves to The Wulfen what Rainbow Warriors are to FSM?

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.....I'm not sure how to interpret that last comment, peacekeeper, other then as a suggestion not in keeping with the rules of this board. Please elaborate.

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BaronIveagh said:

.....I'm not sure how to interpret that last comment, peacekeeper, other then as a suggestion not in keeping with the rules of this board. Please elaborate.

If it is not in keeping with the rules of the board, then perhaps I shouldnt elaborate.

My bad, and apologies to anyone who may take it offensive.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

BaronIveagh said:

.....I'm not sure how to interpret that last comment, peacekeeper, other then as a suggestion not in keeping with the rules of this board. Please elaborate.

If it is not in keeping with the rules of the board, then perhaps I shouldnt elaborate.

My bad, and apologies to anyone who may take it offensive.

You didn't say anything wrong, don't apologize.

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Um, Wodan, that version of the artical hasn't been canon for a long time. You might want to quote the more recent versions. Since, you know, that one had the Emperor alive and touring the lab around 700 M41 IIRC. Unless you're going for irony, which is cool.

And, Wodan, why, are you suggesting something about Rainbow Warriors players?

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Who cares. If someone lets someone play a female marine in his or her game, then that is up to that GM. So arguing about whether or not the game is a true cannon Deathwatch game is also pointless. Let me explain why it is pointless.

You make a character, your friends make a character. Each of those characters are NON-CANNON! Why? Because none of those characters are going to be in offical story written by GW. Sure you might pick a name of a Cannon Marine...still not the same thing. Also Some of the rules do not make sense. Why would a Space Wolf give more stock to what an Ultramarine says then a Blood Angel? He wouldn't. He wouldn't care about Robert Gulliman's 'pure' Geneseed. Why? Because space wolves are very independent and don't Care about what an ultramarine says. ****.... they dont care if they piss off the churchies or Inquisitors.

The Issue I have with all the Arguing is that it is detracting from players to just have fun. Would I let a female play a female space marine. I really can't say, not with out some addition background. That is because NO GAME of DEATHWATCH Will BE 100% CANNON!

For those who think so I feel sorry for you, because you can't live in the real world, were compromise is the norm. Bring Politicial issues into this discussion is also pointless because it takes away from the fun of it. Calling people lefties or righties is childish. I am a conservitive, but I don't let it get in the way of me having harmless fun playing a board game or miniture game or RPG. I play these games to get away from the politics, headaches, and troubles of the real world.

For those of you who agree with me, sorry for the long post. For those who dont agree with me, sorry for wasting your time. Just remember that this game is for fun, and that sometimes you must suspend your belief or Cannon so that others can have fun as well.

Ranek

PS. Let us place this argument aside, at least till the end of the Wolftime my brothers. For in the end the emperor will need every able warrior, man or woman, at that time.

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I have a player who wanted to roll up a female Space Marine: after gritting my teeth and pushing down my instinctive nerd-rage I gave it a go ahead.

Story-wise she is from a chapter derived from a unique mutation of the Blood Angels gene-seed. The powers that be wanted to observe this change in the gene-seed so created her chapter, it is very small (less then a hundred between high mortality rate for induction and a particularly nasty campaign fought against Orks). While the Astartes (and by extension, the Deathwatch) have always been a 'boys only club' if you are still worthy enough to survive getting the gene seed and are loyal to Primarch and Emperor, most will accept the existense of this secret chapter. The only people who have a beef with it are the Black Templar or other drooling-fanatic Chapters.

Game-mechanics there is no change, and the only people who in fact notice the change in sex are other Astartes (It's hard to tell who has **** in power armor). And while members of the Inquisition or other normal humans might react poorly to a female Astartes, most won't be able to notice while they are in power armor, since so few normal humans have had extensive enough dealings with Astartes to tell.

It's a game. People are there to have fun. Let them. That's my stance, anyway.

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Questionable Methods said:

It's a game. People are there to have fun. Let them. That's my stance, anyway.

True enough!

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Ranek7212 said:

Questionable Methods said:

It's a game. People are there to have fun. Let them. That's my stance, anyway.

True enough!

Amen

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Questionable Methods said:

It's a game. People are there to have fun. Let them. That's my stance, anyway.

I agree. Though the fun of all must be considered. Someone playing a female Astartes would honestly hinder my fun.

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Atheosis said:

Questionable Methods said:

It's a game. People are there to have fun. Let them. That's my stance, anyway.

I agree. Though the fun of all must be considered. Someone playing a female Astartes would honestly hinder my fun.

If you get that hung up over the canonocity of other player's characters and it interfears with your fun...

Either your GM REALLY sucks, or you are the guy that the rest of the party is going to vote off the island because you're preventing everyone else from having a good time if you aren't.

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BaronIveagh said:

Atheosis said:

Questionable Methods said:

It's a game. People are there to have fun. Let them. That's my stance, anyway.

I agree. Though the fun of all must be considered. Someone playing a female Astartes would honestly hinder my fun.

If you get that hung up over the canonocity of other player's characters and it interfears with your fun...

Either your GM REALLY sucks, or you are the guy that the rest of the party is going to vote off the island because you're preventing everyone else from having a good time if you aren't.

Or the majority of the party feels the same as him.

Alex

Posted at

Atheosis said:

Questionable Methods said:

It's a game. People are there to have fun. Let them. That's my stance, anyway.

I agree. Though the fun of all must be considered. Someone playing a female Astartes would honestly hinder my fun.

Either that or your too hung up on Cannon to have fun, which is stupid because no game is 100% cannon anyway.

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Oh let it go people. Honestly.

Page 28 should stop this thread from reading 28 pages.

BYE

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ak-73 said:

Or the majority of the party feels the same as him.

In 30 years of running games, I've never seen the party feel the same about anything unless it's me docking them xp/money.

It's the one thing they're universally opposed to.

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SPECIAL NEWS FLASH: Space Marines are male. The canon states that they have to be male due to zygote issues. Sisters of Battle are female. I imagine this is because they are the "brides" of the Emperor. I do not really see any reason for gender swapping in these issues. From what I have read, the Sisters have amazing faith based powers, many of which eclipse those of a Space Marine. Each has its strengths and merits. I feel like this is more about putting D Cups on power armor than anything reasonable or logical.

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BaronIveagh said:

ak-73 said:

Or the majority of the party feels the same as him.

In 30 years of running games, I've never seen the party feel the same about anything unless it's me docking them xp/money.

It's the one thing they're universally opposed to.

Yeah but I remember what you said who you're playing with. ;-) Seriously speaking, I think you're doing quite a bit of agitation here for the female marine cause.

Alex

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BaronIveagh said:

Atheosis said:

Questionable Methods said:

It's a game. People are there to have fun. Let them. That's my stance, anyway.

I agree. Though the fun of all must be considered. Someone playing a female Astartes would honestly hinder my fun.

If you get that hung up over the canonocity of other player's characters and it interfears with your fun...

Either your GM REALLY sucks, or you are the guy that the rest of the party is going to vote off the island because you're preventing everyone else from having a good time if you aren't.

Nah, as with most the people on these boards, I and the rest of the people I know that will be playing Deathwatch actually want the game to be in keeping with the background. Player's that want female marines are a definite minority amongst those who are actually fans of 40k, and those are the only people I plan on playing Deathwatch with. For those that just want to play any old sci-fantasy game, there's always the bland Star Wars universe.

Besides if a person reserves the right to demand alterations to the universe for them to play Deathwatch, I reserve the right to tell them to take a leap so I can play a 40k Space Marine game the way it's supposed to be played.

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BaronIveagh said:

ak-73 said:

Or the majority of the party feels the same as him.

In 30 years of running games, I've never seen the party feel the same about anything unless it's me docking them xp/money.

It's the one thing they're universally opposed to.

Get a bunch of hardcore 40k fans together to play Deathwatch, and I guarantee that would quickly change when you proposed female marines as part of the universe...

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I agree. Especially if the player was very attractive, or at the very least I could get along with. Those that say otherwise are lying to themselves.

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Atheosis said:

Nah, as with most the people on these boards, I and the rest of the people I know that will be playing Deathwatch actually want the game to be in keeping with the background. Player's that want female marines are a definite minority amongst those who are actually fans of 40k, and those are the only people I plan on playing Deathwatch with. For those that just want to play any old sci-fantasy game, there's always the bland Star Wars universe.

Besides if a person reserves the right to demand alterations to the universe for them to play Deathwatch, I reserve the right to tell them to take a leap so I can play a 40k Space Marine game the way it's supposed to be played.

Hold on... you're suggesting that people who put months into converting whole armies of minis with greenstuff and resin, and writing elaboriate chapter histories, are NOT fans of 40k, but the person with the pink landraiders and hello kitty dreadnaught is?

This almost reminds me of the guy who threw a screaming fit at, I want to say Gencon, four years back, but I'm not certain, it's been a while, that he refused to play 40k against 'girls' because they were 'inferior'.

Our entire gaming group (not jus the RPG party, the entire gaming club of 25 people) was then asked to leave the convention, as the female member in question took said gentleman and beat him bloody with her army's carrying case when the judge refused to intervene.

Mind you, several of us were cheering her on as she bludgeoned him...

Amusing anacdotes aside, I tend to sid with the FSM side of the debate for two reasons. One, as Ranek points out, the attractive female gamer with the FSM army tells me that is my position. Second is that it's the part of fluff that never has seemed to ring true. It dosn't fit the rest of the picture. If you have the genetic science to do all the other things required to make a space marine, then there's no reson that you woul discard half your population as potential recruits, particularly if the whole 'seige mentality' of 40k is supposed to drive the universe. I've been under siege. You give a gun to every man, woman, and child that can hang on to one and pray. There's none of this 'You girls stand over there and scream and act scared' crap.

That's a peculiarity of patriarchal societies and one that tends to go out the window in the sort of world where life is nasty, brutal, and short.

Which actually makes it MORE grimdark, not less.

ak-73 said:

Yeah but I remember what you said who you're playing with. ;-) Seriously speaking, I think you're doing quite a bit of agitation here for the female marine cause.

Just because they're the party from hell doesn't mean they don't like 40k.

I actually feel that there should be FSMs. And the hypocaracy of a lot of players is staggering. They'll scream 'FLUFF!' on this issue and then sort of wink and grin at things that are just as non-canon as long as it fits thier personal view of what 40k is.

That and I get a lot of 'positive support' from the significant other for it.

So, I'm hoping for 28 pages! ;)

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Whoops, double post!