ak-73 said:
Ask a girl who wants to play a female marine. :-)
I just don't understand why this would be a make or break deal for a woman. And if it is, I have a hard time seeing why anybody would want to play with someone that insists on fundamental changes to a setting for them to participate. It's nauseatingly selfish if you ask me.
Atheosis said:
ak-73 said:
Ask a girl who wants to play a female marine. :-)
I just don't understand why this would be a make or break deal for a woman. And if it is, I have a hard time seeing why anybody would want to play with someone that insists on fundamental changes to a setting for them to participate. It's nauseatingly selfish if you ask me.
I guess some girls feel made second class players. Or excluded from the boys' club.
Alex
ak-73 said:
Atheosis said:
ak-73 said:
Ask a girl who wants to play a female marine. :-)
I just don't understand why this would be a make or break deal for a woman. And if it is, I have a hard time seeing why anybody would want to play with someone that insists on fundamental changes to a setting for them to participate. It's nauseatingly selfish if you ask me.
I guess some girls feel made second class players. Or excluded from the boys' club.
Alex
I can't believe that I'm participating in "another" one of these threads.
My wife plays in our Deathwatch game. She is an Assualt Marine with a bad attitude and rather hot-blooded. She loves it.
She's also the type that plays male characters in RPG's all the time anyway "just for something different". Even in MMORPG's, she plays male characters... mostly to not be bothered by actual males staring at her female character during a raid, but you get the idea.
Gender doesn't matter. If a person can't see past the "gender issue" in a type of gameplay that is mostly about "not being yourself but someone else" then I think that they have missed the point of "role-playing".
Playing a space marine is practically playing another race... like an orc, or elves, or undead, or <mythological race here>
Yes, they are human.. but so far removed from what a normal human worries about that they are beyond petty trivial "mortal" concerns. To play as someone who is human, but not really human, is as different as playing as any other race that is not human.
If I were playing as a Necron, would it matter if I was male or female? Nope... I'm still made out of living metal and serving my Immortal masters.
If I were playing as a Machine Spirit in a Land Raider, would it matter if I had a female or male voice? Nope.. I'm still just an algorithm "surviving" inside host body.
If I were playing as a Space Marine, would it matter if I was male or female? Nope... I'm a tool of the Emperor, his chosen warrior, and his divine will made manifest. I'm born from a male genetic makeup, but I'm no longer readily interpreted as a "male" and instead I'm perceived as a Space Marine... origins be damned.
SpawnoChaos said:
ak-73 said:
Atheosis said:
ak-73 said:
Ask a girl who wants to play a female marine. :-)
I just don't understand why this would be a make or break deal for a woman. And if it is, I have a hard time seeing why anybody would want to play with someone that insists on fundamental changes to a setting for them to participate. It's nauseatingly selfish if you ask me.
I guess some girls feel made second class players. Or excluded from the boys' club.
Alex
I can't believe that I'm participating in "another" one of these threads.
My wife plays in our Deathwatch game. She is an Assualt Marine with a bad attitude and rather hot-blooded. She loves it.
She's also the type that plays male characters in RPG's all the time anyway "just for something different". Even in MMORPG's, she plays male characters... mostly to not be bothered by actual males staring at her female character during a raid, but you get the idea.
Gender doesn't matter. If a person can't see past the "gender issue" in a type of gameplay that is mostly about "not being yourself but someone else" then I think that they have missed the point of "role-playing".
Different strokes for different folks. What's your point might not be someone else's.
SpawnoChaos said:
Playing a space marine is practically playing another race... like an orc, or elves, or undead, or <mythological race here>
Yes, they are human.. but so far removed from what a normal human worries about that they are beyond petty trivial "mortal" concerns. To play as someone who is human, but not really human, is as different as playing as any other race that is not human.
If I were playing as a Necron, would it matter if I was male or female? Nope... I'm still made out of living metal and serving my Immortal masters.
If I were playing as a Machine Spirit in a Land Raider, would it matter if I had a female or male voice? Nope.. I'm still just an algorithm "surviving" inside host body.
If I were playing as a Space Marine, would it matter if I was male or female? Nope... I'm a tool of the Emperor, his chosen warrior, and his divine will made manifest. I'm born from a male genetic makeup, but I'm no longer readily interpreted as a "male" and instead I'm perceived as a Space Marine... origins be damned.
Taking a look at the minis or illustrations or some of the novels, they are distinctly male in flavour.
Alex
ak-73 said:
Taking a look at the minis or illustrations or some of the novels, they are distinctly male in flavour.
Yep, because they are all male. If people can't get that through their thick skulls they obviously have no appreciation for 40k as it is, and I just don't get why they would want to play this game in the first place.
Then again my suspicion is that most of, if not all of, the female players that are being so insistent on playable female marines probably really don't know the first thing about 40k. They're likely just playing Deathwatch because the male 40k fans in their roleplaying group are asking them to.
I'm sure that a masterful Geneator of the Adeptus Mechanicus could theoretically use the tithed SM geneseed samples stored on Mars in an experiment to found a new chapter based upon female stock. If this Geneator manages to pull this off without being declared a heretic is an entirely different matter. Even if the limits of the Imperium's pseudo-science could be bent to allow for these female SMs, the tolerance of Imperial society is somewhat less flexible.
Of course, this does make me think of the Skitarii of the Adeptus Mechanicus as a source of enhanced female troops on a level that may approach SMs. A female Skitarius could theoretically take the place of a Techmarine, but much as with a SoB, the trick is figuring out why the character is operating with the Deathwatch (perhaps she's trained in xeno-tech).
I was struggling with the same problem. I needed a few female character concepts I could offer for my female players. Naturally I needed them to be tough enough to stand with the Deathwatch marines. I scrapped the SoB option simply because the nature of SoB as an organization. Yes, I feel that Ordo Xenos Inquisitor could have an exceptional Sister in his/her retinue, but I didn't want to do this because my DH campaign already has one of those and I purposefully wanted the DW inquisitors retinue to be different. Then I thought Officio Assassinorum, but passed that because in DH campaign one of my female players already has an OA operator. Yet again, I wanted the retinue of this new game be "something else".
So, I went back to basics. Deathwatch campaign is very military focused and the DW characters are very powerful. I needed the female options to be something along those lines, too. So, I finally made up two such concepts:
- Skitarii Special Operator. This one is a heavily bio-modified, cyber-enhanced human with heavy machinator array, the best of best of gene- and bio-therapies a praetorian-scale power armor and the works. Takes up a "Techmarine" slot in the kill team.
- Primaris Psyker Biomancer. A hand-picked psyker acolyte in service of Ordo Xenos. Powerfull Biomancer and has received gene-therapy and bio-enhancements comparable to the best Officio Assassinorum operatives. Inquisitor has provided her with personal power armor and weapons. Takes up a "Librarian" slot in the kill team.
Not that the "Exceptional Sister" or "Officio Assassinorum Progeny" wouldn't have worked, but I felt they weren't quite so unnatural as Space Marines are... And the "We are defending humanity by losing our own humanity" is one of the themes I want to introduce in DW.
Atheosis said:
ak-73 said:
Taking a look at the minis or illustrations or some of the novels, they are distinctly male in flavour.
Yep, because they are all male. If people can't get that through their thick skulls they obviously have no appreciation for 40k as it is, and I just don't get why they would want to play this game in the first place.
Then again my suspicion is that most of, if not all of, the female players that are being so insistent on playable female marines probably really don't know the first thing about 40k. They're likely just playing Deathwatch because the male 40k fans in their roleplaying group are asking them to.
I stand to what I said before: the setting as it is is bound to make some girls feel excluded from the boys' club. Being given a lesser role, essentially. The stars of the game are the Deathwatch marines, if they can't play a female one, they'll feel second class.
Note that this will only go for some girls. Each GM will have to decide for themselves how to deal with that if that's the case with one or more of their players.
Alex
ak-73 said:
Atheosis said:
ak-73 said:
Taking a look at the minis or illustrations or some of the novels, they are distinctly male in flavour.
Yep, because they are all male. If people can't get that through their thick skulls they obviously have no appreciation for 40k as it is, and I just don't get why they would want to play this game in the first place.
Then again my suspicion is that most of, if not all of, the female players that are being so insistent on playable female marines probably really don't know the first thing about 40k. They're likely just playing Deathwatch because the male 40k fans in their roleplaying group are asking them to.
I stand to what I said before: the setting as it is is bound to make some girls feel excluded from the boys' club. Being given a lesser role, essentially. The stars of the game are the Deathwatch marines, if they can't play a female one, they'll feel second class.
Note that this will only go for some girls. Each GM will have to decide for themselves how to deal with that if that's the case with one or more of their players.
Alex
In a world were some women are forced to wear full body birkas, veils, be second class citizens, get beaten by thier fathers/husbands for showing an ankle or talking to an unauthorized male and you draw the line at no female space marines?
Nuclear Armageddon cannot come soon enough.
Peacekeeper_b said:
ak-73 said:
Atheosis said:
ak-73 said:
Taking a look at the minis or illustrations or some of the novels, they are distinctly male in flavour.
Yep, because they are all male. If people can't get that through their thick skulls they obviously have no appreciation for 40k as it is, and I just don't get why they would want to play this game in the first place.
Then again my suspicion is that most of, if not all of, the female players that are being so insistent on playable female marines probably really don't know the first thing about 40k. They're likely just playing Deathwatch because the male 40k fans in their roleplaying group are asking them to.
I stand to what I said before: the setting as it is is bound to make some girls feel excluded from the boys' club. Being given a lesser role, essentially. The stars of the game are the Deathwatch marines, if they can't play a female one, they'll feel second class.
Note that this will only go for some girls. Each GM will have to decide for themselves how to deal with that if that's the case with one or more of their players.
Alex
In a world were some women are forced to wear full body birkas, veils, be second class citizens, get beaten by thier fathers/husbands for showing an ankle or talking to an unauthorized male and you draw the line at no female space marines?
Nuclear Armageddon cannot come soon enough.
So since there are societies IRL that push women into disadvantaged roles, we should perpetuate this in our fantasy worlds too? Make **** sure they don't have any escapist fantasies of equality. Nuke yourself...
My opinion on the whole issue is: it is your group and yourself who decide how to run the game. If you want female space Marines, have them in your setting, run them, nothing in the rules forces you towards a male, or male before becoming an astartes character. For me however introduction of female astartes just seems plain wrong, considering myself being used to the whole 40K background as it is for over 15 years by now. I would not like to include something like that in my group, besides there are so many ways out of it, by creating female viable characters (inquisitors, sororitas, assassins, rogue traders and so on). Perfect balancing of power levels is not necessary for me to enjoy the game, backround of 40K as i know it is.
Peacekeeper_b said:
ak-73 said:
Atheosis said:
ak-73 said:
Taking a look at the minis or illustrations or some of the novels, they are distinctly male in flavour.
Yep, because they are all male. If people can't get that through their thick skulls they obviously have no appreciation for 40k as it is, and I just don't get why they would want to play this game in the first place.
Then again my suspicion is that most of, if not all of, the female players that are being so insistent on playable female marines probably really don't know the first thing about 40k. They're likely just playing Deathwatch because the male 40k fans in their roleplaying group are asking them to.
I stand to what I said before: the setting as it is is bound to make some girls feel excluded from the boys' club. Being given a lesser role, essentially. The stars of the game are the Deathwatch marines, if they can't play a female one, they'll feel second class.
Note that this will only go for some girls. Each GM will have to decide for themselves how to deal with that if that's the case with one or more of their players.
Alex
In a world were some women are forced to wear full body birkas, veils, be second class citizens, get beaten by thier fathers/husbands for showing an ankle or talking to an unauthorized male and you draw the line at no female space marines?
Nuclear Armageddon cannot come soon enough.
I am not drawing any lines though, in case you didn't notice.
Alex
aka_mythos said:
They would sooner kill each other than assist each other. There is inherent distrust and motivation to act supercede the other. If someone wants a female character who is extra religious and a zealot clad in power armor go ahead, but don't make them a marine or a sister of battle. Its contrary to the setting.
Incorrect. There are actually plenty of examples of Space Marines and SoB fighting along side each other against a threat.
aka_mythos said:
There is no precedent for honorary membership into a chapter and even if there were no chapter would send such a person since the members of a chapter sent are part of a tithe the chapters commit to in exchange for materiel support from the mechanicum. Marine chapters have retainers, she could be such a person accompanying a marine but she wouldn't be a marine.
Actually, only partially correct. There are in fluff instances of people, and even a handful of robots from the legio cybernetica, being given an honorary membership of various chapters. Mind you, the bar is a tad high for this, since you either have to earn the gratitude of, or REALLY impress at great personal risk, a sizeable chunk of a space marine chapter, which is not something that is frequently done.
HappyDaze said:
Peacekeeper_b said:
ak-73 said:
Atheosis said:
ak-73 said:
Taking a look at the minis or illustrations or some of the novels, they are distinctly male in flavour.
Yep, because they are all male. If people can't get that through their thick skulls they obviously have no appreciation for 40k as it is, and I just don't get why they would want to play this game in the first place.
Then again my suspicion is that most of, if not all of, the female players that are being so insistent on playable female marines probably really don't know the first thing about 40k. They're likely just playing Deathwatch because the male 40k fans in their roleplaying group are asking them to.
I stand to what I said before: the setting as it is is bound to make some girls feel excluded from the boys' club. Being given a lesser role, essentially. The stars of the game are the Deathwatch marines, if they can't play a female one, they'll feel second class.
Note that this will only go for some girls. Each GM will have to decide for themselves how to deal with that if that's the case with one or more of their players.
Alex
In a world were some women are forced to wear full body birkas, veils, be second class citizens, get beaten by thier fathers/husbands for showing an ankle or talking to an unauthorized male and you draw the line at no female space marines?
Nuclear Armageddon cannot come soon enough.
So since there are societies IRL that push women into disadvantaged roles, we should perpetuate this in our fantasy worlds too? Make **** sure they don't have any escapist fantasies of equality. Nuke yourself...
HappyDaze said:
So since there are societies IRL that push women into disadvantaged roles, we should perpetuate this in our fantasy worlds too? Make **** sure they don't have any escapist fantasies of equality. Nuke yourself...
Not what I said at all. Maybe how it came across but not the purpose.
The point is, there are actually bigger issues for people to get upset over then "only male space marines." If that is the defining line of whether someone would play a game or not, then they wouldnt be welcome at my table.
It is exactly the same as if a GM was going to run a Sisters of Battle only game and I complained that I wanted to play a male Sister of Battle. Tough for me, thats not the setting, the game or the design.
change gamemaster......
game is for fun....always!
we only suggest to you other other solution from a chapter of female in order to respect the original idea of the author....
but it's your game and your fun...do what you want
cheers
Women are in a "disadvantage role" in Warhammer 40K?
The Adeptus Sororitas are basically the "Brides of the Emperor."
They stride two great monolithic structures of the Imperium.
The Adeptus Ministorum - and the Inquisition. The Ministorum could easily be called the most powerful Adeptus - and the Inquisition IS the most powerful institution in the Imperium.
Honestly - perhaps the reason why the Emperor used male gene-stock was out of respect for the female. Because they didn't need to be genetically altered to be better at what they do. Perhaps - he admires their ability to create life - their compassion and loyalty - their strength of character and ability to take care of the the Imperium.
And are we still under the delusion that the Space Marines are the end all be all of soldier?
I don't see many Space Marine "Saints" running around with flaming swords and angel wings.... and yet, I can think of several Sororitas.
Peacekeeper_b said:
It is exactly the same as if a GM was going to run a Sisters of Battle only game and I complained that I wanted to play a male Sister of Battle. Tough for me, thats not the setting, the game or the design.
To my eventual, I am sure,shame ... I have to agree with this. If one is going to involve oneself in a fictional role-playing setting, then one should be prepared to adhere to the "fluff/lore/background" of that setting. So my first instinct is to disallow Female Space Marines or Male Sororitas. It is also my first instinct to make my players adhere to the limitations I see as relevant to my game.
So, while I can see and understand the compunction to allow whatever your ... less than fully-knowledgeable-in-the-setting players ... I also see the need to maintain the continuity of the given setting.
JMHO.
Seriously - there is no blank on the character sheet for gender, if she wants to call herself female, whatever - it doesn't come into play in the game at all.
Another thing - an oppressive civilization where trillions of people are trampled underfoot - the great "Machine of the Imperium" churns onward grinding up humanity to survive. Heck - servitors are made of people...
And none of that is offensive - it's "cool and edgy" - but as soon as we need an excuse to play something that isn't supported by the genre. Then - we're civic warriors of justice.
===
The game is ours - we can do with it, what our imagine wills.
Personally - if they ever revealed the two missing chapters as female - I'd say: "Heck, that's cool with me."
I wouldn't throw some nerd rage about verisimilitude...
But, until that day, I'm also not going to state that the game represents prejudice (at least on anything but a fictional level - for reasons present in the genre - which an be valid and provocative to explore in the confines of an RPG
===
I also support not allowing the Lore Marines chapter to let loose their pods and devastate a speculative thread.
People should be allowed to talk about altering the genre without the righteous will of the God-Emperor of Static Lore hitting people with "facts" about a fictional genre.
Sister Cat said:
So, while I can see and understand the compunction to allow whatever your ... less than fully-knowledgeable-in-the-setting players ... I also see the need to maintain the continuity of the given setting.
JMHO.
I have to say that this opinion is very very near to what I am thinking. I do respect the right of a GM to change the setting if need be, but lets think this a bit further:
It is not like Warhammer 40K is a very misogynist world. Far from it. Pretty much all powers-to-be in it (Nobles, Rogue Traders, Inquisition etc.) seem to be equal opportunity career paths. However, Warhammer 40K world certainly does include a lot of other things that would (or at least should) offend anyone living in modern, western society: fascism, personal-cults, government sanctioned torture, summary executions, genocidal violence, servitors... Hell, the whole Warhammer world is made out of stuff that are illegal, immoral or offensive to modern, western values.
We don't change the setting on them and now we talk about changing setting to accomodate female astartes and male sororitas when they are actually the ONLY gender-exclusive organizations in a world literally FILLED with all sorts of other injusticies. Now please. Think about it for a second. At least I think its not only stupid, but also somehow really, really sad.
Not allowing women to play soccer at all is misogynism (they do that in countries like Iran). Having gender-exclusive soccer teams is not.
Polaria said:
Sister Cat said:
So, while I can see and understand the compunction to allow whatever your ... less than fully-knowledgeable-in-the-setting players ... I also see the need to maintain the continuity of the given setting.
JMHO.
I have to say that this opinion is very very near to what I am thinking. I do respect the right of a GM to change the setting if need be, but lets think this a bit further:
It is not like Warhammer 40K is a very misogynist world. Far from it. Pretty much all powers-to-be in it (Nobles, Rogue Traders, Inquisition etc.) seem to be equal opportunity career paths. However, Warhammer 40K world certainly does include a lot of other things that would (or at least should) offend anyone living in modern, western society: fascism, personal-cults, government sanctioned torture, summary executions, genocidal violence, servitors... Hell, the whole Warhammer world is made out of stuff that are illegal, immoral or offensive to modern, western values.
We don't change the setting on them and now we talk about changing setting to accomodate female astartes and male sororitas when they are actually the ONLY gender-exclusive organizations in a world literally FILLED with all sorts of other injusticies. Now please. Think about it for a second. At least I think its not only stupid, but also somehow really, really sad.
Not allowing women to play soccer at all is misogynism (they do that in countries like Iran). Having gender-exclusive soccer teams is not.
First of all, it's probably not going to make a difference and people will run the game they want to, no matter what anyone here says.
Secondly, the Space Marines are the stars of the 40K Universe. If one takes a look at all the publications in their entirety, there is no doubt about that. And the great antagonist, in spite of the Tyranid thread, is Chaos. As such, the SoB are second-rate.
No matter what powers one gives to specific PCs, at the center of the 40K publications there are the SM. Which maybe explains why some girls want to play a female space marine.
They want to be part of their glorious history. It's not just about power armours and bolters.
Alex
ak-73 said:
They want to be part of their glorious history. It's not just about power armours and bolters.
They want to be a part of a glorious history by fundamentally changing said history?
All your arguments are so out of touch with what 40k is and isn't...
ak-73 said:
Polaria said:
Sister Cat said:
So, while I can see and understand the compunction to allow whatever your ... less than fully-knowledgeable-in-the-setting players ... I also see the need to maintain the continuity of the given setting.
JMHO.
I have to say that this opinion is very very near to what I am thinking. I do respect the right of a GM to change the setting if need be, but lets think this a bit further:
It is not like Warhammer 40K is a very misogynist world. Far from it. Pretty much all powers-to-be in it (Nobles, Rogue Traders, Inquisition etc.) seem to be equal opportunity career paths. However, Warhammer 40K world certainly does include a lot of other things that would (or at least should) offend anyone living in modern, western society: fascism, personal-cults, government sanctioned torture, summary executions, genocidal violence, servitors... Hell, the whole Warhammer world is made out of stuff that are illegal, immoral or offensive to modern, western values.
We don't change the setting on them and now we talk about changing setting to accomodate female astartes and male sororitas when they are actually the ONLY gender-exclusive organizations in a world literally FILLED with all sorts of other injusticies. Now please. Think about it for a second. At least I think its not only stupid, but also somehow really, really sad.
Not allowing women to play soccer at all is misogynism (they do that in countries like Iran). Having gender-exclusive soccer teams is not.
First of all, it's probably not going to make a difference and people will run the game they want to, no matter what anyone here says.
Secondly, the Space Marines are the stars of the 40K Universe. If one takes a look at all the publications in their entirety, there is no doubt about that. And the great antagonist, in spite of the Tyranid thread, is Chaos. As such, the SoB are second-rate.
No matter what powers one gives to specific PCs, at the center of the 40K publications there are the SM. Which maybe explains why some girls want to play a female space marine.
They want to be part of their glorious history. It's not just about power armours and bolters.
Alex
ak-73 said:
Polaria said:
Sister Cat said:
So, while I can see and understand the compunction to allow whatever your ... less than fully-knowledgeable-in-the-setting players ... I also see the need to maintain the continuity of the given setting.
JMHO.
I have to say that this opinion is very very near to what I am thinking. I do respect the right of a GM to change the setting if need be, but lets think this a bit further:
It is not like Warhammer 40K is a very misogynist world. Far from it. Pretty much all powers-to-be in it (Nobles, Rogue Traders, Inquisition etc.) seem to be equal opportunity career paths. However, Warhammer 40K world certainly does include a lot of other things that would (or at least should) offend anyone living in modern, western society: fascism, personal-cults, government sanctioned torture, summary executions, genocidal violence, servitors... Hell, the whole Warhammer world is made out of stuff that are illegal, immoral or offensive to modern, western values.
We don't change the setting on them and now we talk about changing setting to accomodate female astartes and male sororitas when they are actually the ONLY gender-exclusive organizations in a world literally FILLED with all sorts of other injusticies. Now please. Think about it for a second. At least I think its not only stupid, but also somehow really, really sad.
Not allowing women to play soccer at all is misogynism (they do that in countries like Iran). Having gender-exclusive soccer teams is not.
First of all, it's probably not going to make a difference and people will run the game they want to, no matter what anyone here says.
Secondly, the Space Marines are the stars of the 40K Universe. If one takes a look at all the publications in their entirety, there is no doubt about that. And the great antagonist, in spite of the Tyranid thread, is Chaos. As such, the SoB are second-rate.
No matter what powers one gives to specific PCs, at the center of the 40K publications there are the SM. Which maybe explains why some girls want to play a female space marine.
They want to be part of their glorious history. It's not just about power armours and bolters.
Alex
You can't have it both ways - If the Space Marines are the stars, they are because of the fluff. If you change them they aren't those stars of the 40k universe anymore, they are something else that someone created.
Darq said:
You can't have it both ways - If the Space Marines are the stars, they are because of the fluff. If you change them they aren't those stars of the 40k universe anymore, they are something else that someone created.
I fear individual GMs will see it differently; to them including females will not make them be less glamourous, no matter what the official ruling is or not. Within their interpretation of the 40K universe, they'll be the stars nonetheless.
That people with a more literalist interpretation see it differently is a given. There's
Puritans
as well as the
Radicals
, I guess.
Alex
Stop feeding the trolls!