bmaynard said:

+1 I could not possibly think that you were more awesome right now, thank you for putting this whole debate in a frame for us

I figured this would be dead since the new rulebook deals with it pretty clearly in the first couple of chapters.

There are no female space marines. The geneseed is coded to male DNA.

I'm not really passionate about this one way or the other, but it's plainly been dealt with in the written materials of GW products and now backed up by FFG.

Why not just look for ways to include female characters into the setting. The book has some decent ideas for incorporating Ascension level characters and Rogue traders into the game already. Just take in from there.

Cervantes3773 said:

Because then you would be Eldar and that's a whole new realm of nerd-rage?

One must not break the thematic army!

Kage

Kage2020 said:

When it comes to the eldar I only have one thing to say. Just die already....geez

Quod Erat Demonstrandum ...

(Had to look that up, but did it in honour of MILLANDSON's LP... )

Kage

Atomic_Pope said:

I have, and you're spot on. For those that haven't, go research it.

Atomic_Pope said:

There's a lot of material about Cultural Marxism and it's negative influence upon the West. Dr. MacDonald's The Culture of Critique is another brilliant place to start.

Of course, this is directed at those in the center, not on the Left. Those people that say those days are over and obviously applauding the decline of the West (not to be confused with Spengler's work), and cannot be reasoned with. The Left is inherently illogical.

This thread is the lolz though.

This is getting rather off-topic but it's important to mention.

Cultural Marxism is a big secret, one they don't want revealed. Their big tactic is to call anyone who disagrees with them racist to try and shut them up. It's not working anymore and they don't know what to do. I'm sure they'll think of something.

It's a **** shame the U.S. let the Frankfurt School inside its borders. We should have said, "No Thanks, trash, go someplace else. I don't care about your plight. Please push your poison elsewhere."

LeBlanc13 said:

The problem is the rules are too broken between the two. With the 'psyker' exception, so far anything I've thrown at my party that would threaten the space marines yields dead ascension characters. I know 'in theory' they're the same level, but theory does not seem to be equaling outcome. Space Marines are so absurdly tough that it just doesn't really work, unless they're using a nuke build psyker from cover all the time or a vindicare assassin. (The assassin made it two sessions before being eaten by gaunts).

A lot of noise has been made about the fact that WS and BS are similar, but this DOES NOT yield the same defense/damage. Space Marine Armor + TB has been far and above a better defense then dodge +10 and/or Unarmed Master. We won't even talk about HB.

On the OT subject that AP brought up...

Atomic Pope, if you want people to take stuff you say seriously, lines like 'They Don't Want You To Know' are something to avoid. I've seen too many crazies telling me that 'they' whoever they might be, also don't want me to know about the US Gov secret alliance with aliens/nazis/the pope/Communism, that Tesla invented a super power source that could run mankind forever, that Steve Jobs is secretly an android from the future, and that Batboy has invaded Afghanistan.

As an elected offcial: I havn't heard of any secret alliance. Tesla may have been on to something, but his funding was pulled and no one has since managed to replicate his work on a large scale. Steve Jobs has a decent handshake, but I can't rule out that he might be an android, I haven't dissected him.

And I have no idea Batboy's current location.

Let me ask a question: how can a people be free and not be equal? While equality can exist independent of freedom or tyranny, (as it is possible for all to be equally oppressed) freedom cannot exist without all people being equal (and this is not just my opinion. Many wiser the me have said so, long before the feminist movement began). So how does your suggestion that all people are not equal NOT lead to tyranny and despotism?

You mean all people should be treated equally, under the law, of course. All people are clearly not equal physically, mentally etc. Everyone has the right to be treated equally under the law. That does not mean that I have to treat other people as my equal. But the law does say that I can't discriminate against them because of blah, blah, blah.

Equality will finally arrive when half of the NBA is white, pigme, women!

Eponral said:

My point is that if that white pygmy woman shows up she should at least be given the chance, rather then dismissed outright. To dismiss another as not being your equal based on appearance is simply arrogance. Even a person who's otherwise mentally disabled can occasionally have an idea that might be better then yours.

Personally, Popey is pushing an idea that some people are superior to others, and claiming that it's not racist, sexist, or any other -ist. I think that this idea is rather like suggesting that fire burns but doesn't emit heat. The great man can succeed where others have failed and still think of himself as thier equal.

Indeed, I might point out that I have it from the ultimate in right wing authors that I'm correct.

Pride goes before destruction,

a haughty spirit before a fall.

Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed

than to share plunder with the proud. - Proverbs 16:18-19

BaronIveagh said:

With my short time in DW, I'd agree that the damage dealt and taken by a SM is way higher than anything I've seen in DH Ascention. I really think you could interweave the two games (or three with RT) but as a GM you just have to be very careful about the scenarios into which you put your players. With the overall high stats (e.g. fellowship) of DW characters, they could easily participate and/or snub DH/RT characters in social situations, and still beat them hands down in combat. The only place they don't do equal or better is possbly sneaking around a hive or blending in with a crowd. That could easily result in DH/RT characters feeling left out of half the game while the DW characters get to shine the whole time. It's a burden that I'd only want an experienced or very eager GM to take on.

And as for FFG/GW pretty much excluding girls from the ranks of the SM, well they did in DW and in several other places, but the board was looking for ways (arguments) as to how to bring FSM into the universe wihtout completely destroying canon, and one of the only ways that were seen so far to enable that were one of the lost chapters/legions, or possibly the latest foundings (21st+ foundings that included new/unknown implants). Both of these ideas used chunks of fluff so undefined and open ended that canon would not be shattered, but it won't stop people of the No FSM camp from being annoyed.

And Batboy is in my basement, I lured him there last week.

You must let him go, or the bat people with become upset.

Ranek7212 said:

After all, the last person you want to show up at your house is an upset Batman.

That said: It's nice ot see that somepeop,le are seeing the same problems with the automatic response of 'then play a DH character!' that I am. I actually did have my group give it a try, ladies and gents. The problem is that it takes more shoehorning, rules wise, to get a DH character up to par with a 'same level' space marine, then it does fluffwise to make a female space marine.

Charmander said:

The Cursed Founding may work for implementing female space marines into 40k (emphasis on 'may' as I tend to think it's as stretch even then). What it definitely doesn't do is provide a chapter that would second female marines to Deathwatch so that players could choose to play a fem-marine. A female or coed chapter would never be accepted by Deathwatch, or the rest of the Imperium for that matter, and would likely be seen as heretical and wiped out. The idea isn't a functional work-around regarding canon if that's what you're looking for. It just isn't. Sorry

Charmander said:

Considering that people don't agree on what is canon, what is not, or even whether anythig is.....

If you want female space marines so that a girl could play them : put them in and say that they've always been. Problem solved, now go purge those xenos !

If you're looking for some intricate ways to put them in, but not have everybody aware of it, and in the end create an entire plot around them : do whatever you want that will work in your game.
But if the girl is someone who doesn't know much of the setting, and you give her a FSM, just to have her be looked upon suspisciouly IN GAME by the Brothers, then you have not solved the problem....

Atheosis said:

I have not noticed the Black Dragons purged for their obvious and well known mutations. (Though, granted, the Dark Angels suspect them to be traitors. Ironic, that)

Frankly, the few occasions that Marine chapters have been purged have arisin from three reasons: Treason, Consorting with Daemons, and uncontrolled mutation (see Souldrinkers) And sometimes not even then (the Grey Slayers chapter was NOT excommunicated, despite their chaptermaster summoning Daemons from the warp...)

Who gets into Deathwatch would seem to be entirely at the discretion of the Watchmaster. (I point you to Black Shields)

BaronIveagh said:

The Black Dragons aren't in the habit of seconding marines to Deathwatch, and if they did they wouldn't second the battle brothers that have developed the bone growths.

The degree of obvious geneseed tampering necessary to create female marines would make such a Chapter a priority target trust me. Female marines are as noticable a deviation from the accepted norm as Marines that catch on fire in battle (Fire Hawks) or marines who collect Chaos artifacts (Relictors). Such a Chapter would be declared traitors without hesitation, and I'm amazed that you don't get that.

My point is that no one within Deathwatch would accept a female Space Marine, just as no one would accept a Marine that arrived with a third eye growing out of his forehead and tentacles for arms. Individual discretion isn't an issue in such a matter. In fact, after the "female Astartes" was forcibly detained, turned over to the Inquisition, and tortured for information, there would soon be an Inquisitorial inquiry instituted to hunt down her "Chapter" and destroy it for heresy against the Omnisiah (the tampering with the technology of Astartes geneseed being an afront to the Mechanicus) and the will of the Emperor (the Emperor's will being that Marines be male).

Seriously that's how such a situation would be handled within canon. The Imperium is far from tolerant of such blatant transgressions against its traditions and sacred institutions. I'm not exagerating or making things up. If anything it might even be more harsh than I'm describing it. I don't understand why you don't get that.

Atheosis said:

Except that is EXACTLY what happened in the 21st founding and only one of the chapters (Flame Falcons) was purged. Puritain elements of the Inquisition (!!!!) and the admech took it upon themselves to alter the sacred geneseed, since some cases creating entire new organs, not just tweeking things a bit. (Assuming that is, you consider Index Astartes canon. [WD 260])

And, the Relictors, despite being caught red handed consorting with daemons, were given three chances before they were excommunicated.

BaronIveagh said:

What "exactly" happened? A Chapter was found that had Female Marines? Hardly.

Let's reexamine the known chapters of the 21st founding which you really are misrepresenting in this thread.

1) Black Dragons: Have a serious mutation to the Ossmodula that causes serious mutations. Actively hide their mutations from outsiders and somehow continously provide normal geneseed to the Mechanicus. While their are rumors of their mutations and corruption there as yet remains no proof. They are not known to second marines to Deathwatch.

2) Fire Hawks: Never exhibited any abnormalities. Were lost in the Warp and eventually became the Legion of the Damned.

3) Lamenters: Have pristine geneseed exhibiting no mutations. However they seem to be cursed with terrible luck that has seen them the victim of many misfortunes.

4) Flame Falcons: Burst into flames in combat and were ultimately purged.

5) Minotaurs: No known mutations.

6) Sons of Antaeus: Metal-like bones. Very resilient in battle. Are not know to second Marines to Deathwatch.

So we have one Chapter that has obvious mutations and another that has not-so obvious mutations. Neither is known to second marines to Deathwatch. In all likelihood, neither does (especially Black Dragons as they are pretty fringe in their behavior within the fluff). And in both cases their deviation from the norm isn't as drastic as female Astartes.

What I described did not happen "exactly". Not even close.

Whether or not they would be purged as quickly as I maintain can be argued. Whether or not they would be accepted into Deathwatch really can't be. It really is the equivalent of Deathwatch accepting a three-eyed marine with tentacle arms, or for that matter a Dragon Claw (a Black Dragon with adamantine sheathed bone blades coming out of his forearms). It just wouldn't happen.

Atheosis said:

1) Not entirely true: Read Codex: Armageddon

2) Became the Legion of the Damned. Obviously 'something' happened.

3) Except that they're genetically re-engineered Blood Angels that now lack the defects.

4) Granted

5) Infamous as berzerkers.

6) you left out that they were also noted for being giants even among space marines.

"3. The interior of the subjects chest cavity contains a number of organs whose purpose is undetermined. Primary heart, lungs, kidneys, and liver are present and, in regard to mass to muscle ratio, must have been many times more efficient than even the Space Marines of the present day are known to be. As well as these organs are a number of others of unknown origin. Their function can only be guessed at and it is beyond my expertise to probe thier mysteries. I am familer with most of the organs unique to the physiology of a Space Marine, yet the ones visible here are unknown to me. These organs have been sealed in stasis jars for transport to the more advanced laboratoria facilities on Mars. Perhaps the genetors there will have more success then I...

...I have preformed similar examinations on members of the Adeptus Astartes before this and can say with utter certainty that these subjects are far superior to them in every way." - Autopsy report on one of the original 21st founding marine, The Cursed Founding , WD 260, page 62

"Log Entry 46

I have secretly begun implantation with six test subjects, in our hidden lab that not even Crescere knows of, to more closely monitor the gene development in our altered subjects..." - Base Commander's log, Incunabula, The Cursed Founding , WD 260, pg 63.

Please, tell me how I'm misrepresenting this again?

one question.....

"the Emperor created the Primarches from his own genetic material...."

it's possible that from his own genetic material "came a lady" ?

another question....

why the wise Emperor limit the ability of procreate of the woman only to transform in space marine?

this "ability" was the only resource of the imperium of man......

Evola said:

To a left-thinking brain the right is inherently illogical.

There appears to be a fundamental measurable difference in brain chemistry between the left and the right. I would imagine that this is due to part nature and part nurture.

This leads me to believe that humanity needs members of the left as well as members of the right.

Teachers are have the most education out of any profession. Is it more likely that teachers are all brainwashed, or that logic is present on the left?

Note #1: I did not say that logic was not present on the right. Logic is present on the right.

Note #2: In America Democrats are to the left, and Republicans are to the right.

. . . survey by the Center for the Study of Popular Culture (CSPC) examined the phenomenon of political bias among faculty at 32 elite colleges and universities, where it found 1,397 professors who were registered Democrats and only 134 who were registered Republicans a ratio greater than 10 to 1. . .
. . . Another CSPC study found that at 10 major law schools in the U.S., 430 professors were registered Democrats and 53 were registered Republicans a ratio of more than 8 to 1. . .
. . . The same survey further revealed that at 9 major journalism schools, 120 professors were registered Democrats and 29 were registered Republicans a ratio of more than 4 to 1 . . .
. . . A study released in late December 2005 by UC-Santa Clara economics professor Dan Klein found that social science professors are overwhelmingly Democratic, and that Democratic professors in those disciplines are more homogeneous in their thinking than Republicans. On the question of political affiliation, the survey showed an immense imbalance in the breakdown of Democrats to Republicans, ranging from 21.1 to 1 among anthropologists;
. . . 9.1 to 1 among political and legal philosophers; . . .
. . . 8.5 to 1 among historians; . . .
. . . 5.6 to 1 among political scientists . . .

Another 2005 study by Stanley Rothman, S. Robert Lichter, and Neil Nevitte, titled Politics and Professional Advancement Among College Faculty, found that 72 percent of those teaching at American colleges and universities describe themselves as liberal, as compared to only 15 percent who claim to be conservative.

According to the study, the most one-sided departments are English literature, philosophy, political science, and religious studies, where at least 80 percent of the faculty say they are liberal and no more than 5 percent call themselves conservative.

"The American College Teacher" a major 2001 study by the Higher Education Research Institute at UCLA, which has never been challenged, posed a number of questions on politics to a nationwide sample of professors. The researchers found that 5.3 percent of faculty members could be classified as far left, and another 42.3 percent as liberal. By contrast, 17.7 percent were conservative, and 0.3 percent were far right.

darkrose50 said:

So what your say is that there is at least statistical "evidence" that the republicans want to keep Joe Average as uneducated as possible?

Also if a cursed founding chapter did spawn to occasional FSM would they send them to the DW, being considered a mutation and aberrant?

UncleArkie said:

... I once got a phone call from the Young Republicans pitching that very idea, actually. They quoted a lot of statistics similar to those above and warned parents not to send their childern to college because the liberal professors would brainwash them. And then asked me to buy tickets to a fundraiser for the Republican party. As an Independent, I declined.

Would probably depend on both how the chapter viewed them internally, what percentage of the chapter they were, and how tolerant the Watch commander they were dealing with was.

Remember too that it's heavilly implied that even non-radical inquisitors practice situational ethics. If the chapter is all that stands a sector and a serious threat, most Inquisitors might be inclined not too look too closely until another solution could be found. It also would partially depend on politics within the astartes locally, as they may have allies for whatever reason among the other astartes.

The Inquisition would prefer not to have Badab War II: The Sequel on thier hands.