Can someone lock this thread? Nobody cares what others do in their games. Either allow females or not.

/close thread

MILLANDSON said:

Yes, you could get some of them somewhere, but why search millions of planets for just the right population when you could get all of them anywhere? (a considerable advantage to a fleet based chapter). And remember that all that mutation and genetic drift may actually reduce compatibility even further.

Also, remember, this is 40k. Evolution is spelled Evilution here. If it evolves, it inevitably seems ot become a chaos spawn and/or start worshiping The Changer of Ways.

added since I can't edit the previous post for some reason:

I'm curious what the basis for all the claims that this would destroy 40k forever are? I can say from my own groups gaming that, other then an interesting party dynamic, there really dosn't seem to be any impact at all...

HappyDaze said:

Even the most sparsely populated Chapter World is going to have several million males from which to recruit. For the purpose of steady recruitment to keep a Chapter at a full strength of one thousand, that's plenty, more than plenty in fact.

Isn't this really all about a bunch of models originally produced in the 1980's, and if some of those had been females mixed into the units this discussion would not be happening? I remember when the Sisters of Battle came out, and how cool I thought they were, and not knowing the fluff I suspected they were female Space Marines. I was wrong, but it did not make me lust after a true female chapter.

There were no all-female knightly orders in our Dark Ages. There were plenty of nunneries. On the other hand, in Asia there were many accounts of female fighting orders and kings who had all female body guard detachments. But not in Europe, and if I am not mistaken, Dark Ages Europe is the inspiration behind 40k. Or is it Dune? Or is it Star Wars?

BaronIveagh said:

Who claimed that? It's never going to happen within the canon so that isn't even an issue.

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

Huh? Knightly orders were all-male. There were no nuns within the Knights Templar or the Knights Hospitaller.

Atheosis said:

That is what I said probably should not have left the option for the "coed" Knightly order!

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

Oh sorry, misread that.

No, I mis-wrote it! I left speculation, or all horrors, that perhaps coed knightly orders once existed in the Dark Ages.

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

Thank You, Lord, for he has Delivered Himself Unto Me.

Order of the Hatchet: Catalonia, 1149

The Knights of Calatrava: est Spain, 1219 by Doña Gazelez Maria Yonnes as a religious order for noblewomen who could prove non-Jewish and non-Moorish descent.

The Cordeliere: est France, 1498 by Annede Bretagne, Widow of Charles VIII.

The Order of the Ear of Corn and Ermine: est either 1381 by John IV, Duke of Brittany, or 1405 by Francis, Duke of Brittany, admitted both men and women.
The Ladies of the Order of the Scarf: est Spain, 1390 by King John I of Castile.

The Order of Our Lady of Mercy: est Spain, 1218 by King James I of Aragon This order was originally for men only but was opened to women in 1261.

Order of the Glorious Saint Mary: Italy 1233 (Approved by Pope Alexander IV, 1261)

The Teutonic Order: accepted consorores who assumed the habit of the order and lived under its rule. (technically making them co-ed)

Several orders were founded in the low countries, starting in 1441. Du Cange notes that still in his day (17th c.), "the female canons of the canonical monastery of St. Gertrude in Nivelles (Brabant), after a probation of 3 years, are made knights (militissae) at the altar, by a (male) knight called in for that purpose, who gives them the accolade with a sword and pronounces the usual words."

"The example is of the Noble Women of Tortosa in Aragon, and recorded by Josef Micheli Marquez, who plainly calls them Cavalleros or Knights, or may I not rather say Cavalleras, seeing I observe the words Equitissae and Militissae (formed from the Latin Equites and Milites) heretofore applied to Women, and sometimes used to express Madams or Ladies,though now these Titles are not known." - Ashmole, The Institution, Laws, and Ceremony of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (1672)

In Aragon, there were Hospitallers in Sigena, San Salvador de Isot, Grisén, Alguaire, headed each by a commendatrix. In France they are found in Beaulieu (near Cahors), Martel and Fieux. The only other military order to have convents by 1300 was the order of Santiago, which had admitted married members since its foundation in 1175. and soon women were admitted and organized into convents of the order (late 12th, early 13th c.). The convents were headed by a commendatrix (in Spanish: commendadora) or prioress.

Nope, no female hospitlars here... except in the Order of the Knights Hospitaller. Woops!

BaronIveagh said:

You've obviously never heard of Cultural Marxism.

The real reason for the outcry is to satisfy their indoctrination to destroy western culture, society, and economy. Change the game too much and it's not 40k anymore, it's a pathetic androgenous grey paste with boltguns (Although bolt is aggressive and therefore masculine and should be eradicated as it privledges men, especially the oppressive white man.)

Why not introduce Hello Kitty?

The most obvious flaw of female soldiers in constant war is the inability to replenish the population. A single male can impregnated a woman every day while a single female cannot be impregnated and deliver within the same day. In constant war the female-frontline warrior is a failed system. There isn't a single culture in history or prehistory that sent females to the frontlines in all out war and was better for it. They're the LAST line of defense because at that point it's all or nothing. However, when you're indoctrinated to believe that gender is a "social construct" then understanding this becomes impossible. Heck, understanding just about anything becomes impossible as evidenced by "The Sokal Hoax" which was conducted in response to Gross & Levitt's epic defense of mathematics and the hard sciences from the academic left - "Higher Superstition." I do not expect anyone to read this book but if you're wondering why this is so frikken common you should ask yourself why a Physics Professor needs to explain himself in front of a school board of Postmodern Feminists while Fluid Dynamics doesn't cater to the bias and privledge of the oppressive white male.

/thread

Israeli military allows men and women to serve in combat arms. So the argument that modern day armies do not is false. Also the US military is allows talking about doing it, though I think the issue with if they allow gays in is a more pressing concern at the moment.

Atomic_Pope said:

You're too late, Atomic Pope:

HELLO KITTY HAS COME FOR YOUR 40K!

While I find your views on the left interesting, and I grant that there are fruitloops in that direction almost as good as the ones on the right who insist that gravity is an illusion caused by the devil, or that the world is flat.

However, I might point out that...

...these nice ladies and thier two hundred year run as a front line formation would suggest otherwise. By the time they were finally overwhelmed by the French (who had machine guns) they were approximatly 1/3 of the Dahomey army. Despite the technological gap, they aquitted themselves well and are noted for having initialy inflicted heavy casualties on the french, before the arrival of the Foreign Legion and the aforementioned machine guns. Thier most notable battles were in the 1727 war against the Savi.

I mentioned hello kitty for a reason. And furthermore, that isn't 40k official. Thanks for taking the bait. They chose not to use it for the very reason you cannot seem to understand. There is no official Hello Kitty chapter. Never will be. You cannot understand this. Like I said, it's impossible. Did those cultures survive? No. Did they win? No. They failed. Just like the Celts failed. They're a failed society. Finally, those aren't my views. They're common throughout the academic world. You're just self-censoring.

"The Closing of the American Mind" by Alan Bloom, the first real criticism

"Higher Superstition" 1995 by Levitt & Gross started it all.

"The Sokal Hoax" anthology of embarrassment

"Not out of Africa" by Mary Lefkowitz

"Fashionable Nonsense" by Sokal & Bricmont

"A House Built on Sand" anthology

"What is Postmodernism" by Stephen Hicks

And that just covers the past 23 years. Every facet of academia is covered. BTW, they're all leftists. Again, not my views. I'm not taking credit. I'm just pointing out the facts. Fan creations are not canon for a reason. Your inability to understand that what you do in the privacy of your gaming table, however inane and absurd, in no way guarantees it remains true to the 40K universe is quite obvious. There is no Hello Kitty Chapter even though people like you think it's a GREAT idea. If there was, only people like you would be playing it. You're not the fan base, everyone who disagrees with you IS the fan base. Don't like it? Make a new game and we'll all laugh at your well deserved failure.

Ranek7212 said:

Again, I never said they didn't. Read it again. Read where I said anything like that. You're creating a strawman argument then changing the topic. Why? Gender is a social construct. Your Cultural Marxism is telling. Where in the thread are we talking about homosexuals? We're not. But that's a hot button issue for the Cultural Marxists and therefore you cannot help yourself. You must continue the relentless attack until there's an androgenous grey paste.

Thank you for taking the time to prove my point.

Atomic_Pope said:

I'm still working out how cultural marxism has anything to do with the discussion at all. In fact, I'm not entirly sure what your argument IS exactly.

In the context of 40k, there isn't any difference between men and women based on the power structure's complete and total disreguard for human life in general. People are just meat for the grinder, in this setting. Death is, as they say, the great leveler.

In fact, more women die on the front lines with the Imperial Guard in a day then would ever perish as space marines, in a thousand years.

And this is existing fluff.

So explain to me how your argument holds water here?

Also:

Dahomey did survive as a country, despite being part of French West Africa from the 1890's until the late 60's, early 70's, and is now known as the Republic of Benin (sp?). I would not call that a failed society. A failed foreign policy, definetly.

Spain did survive. It's now known as Spain (at least in English). It has undergone a few governments since women fought on the front lines during the 12th and 13th centuries.

The Soviet Union did, eventually, collapse, but it had more to due with failed financial policy then it's use of women in the military.

Israel, much as some people might wish it, is, sadly, not a failed culture. They actually seem remarkable tenacious.

Hello Kitty is not an offical chapter because Games Workshop does not own the rights to Hello Kitty. If they did, you bet your ass we'd see fluffy pink Space Marine toys with cute kitty hairbands. Why? Because some ad exec would decide they'd make more money combining properties, leading to plush hello kitties in beakie armor.

Personally, I actually don't like the looks of them, pink is not my color.

In Addition:

Your attempt to separate the 'pro' fem marine from 40k fandom rings as falsely as several other people's in this thread have. The simple reason is that there is no consistent view of 40k. In reality, due to the retcons, Black Library, continuity gaffs, and the vague nature of most of 40k, the fanbase is fairly divided, depending on what issue is being discussed.

Secondly, your rude and insulting take on what I do at my gaming table shows your general ignorance of most of the discussion so far. The basic crux of the last..... ten pages or so was 'how might such a thing be incorporated into 40k with a minimum of fluff breakage?' not 'this is my master plan to invade 40k with fem marines'.

No, no, no...it's to prevent the existance of the Space Moerines...

...

Yea. I'm going to start finding a hole to hide in...

zakueins said:

Wow... uh... yeah, and yet, Atomic Pope jumps all over my ass for the Hello Kitty ref...

BaronIveagh said:

Dame Templars and Hospitallers were not Front Line. The Front Line of the Crusades was always the middle east. That's pretty basic stuff. Even "ignorant" people understand this. Women were not on the front lines in the 12th and 13th Century. They were the defense force. The front lines would be an invasion force of a regular army, and not the logistics. Women have always been in logistics but the casualties in logistics are notoriously low. Hence society's grudging acceptance. Celts invaded using women and depleted themselves as a people. The evidence is overwhelming. I've studied all of this as part of my MOS. For example, in recent times the Serbs targeted women to chase out the Muslims during their conflict. It worked. Kill the women and they cannot engage in effective suicide bombing or paramilitary campaigns. For Jihaddists, women serve as logistics. Shoot any women with a headscarf and they're instantly demoralized. They don't have a home to go back to.

Soviet Union - Not Fron Line. Defense Force? Yes. But women didn't invade Afghanistan. I have friends who fled the Soviet Union from Afghanistan. They tell the real story. Not the feminist version which attempts to conscript women into an agenda that they themselves are exempt. But those are not my words.

Israel - Not Front Line. I've been to Israel. There's a reason why it's called a DEFENSE FORCE. Were women on the "Peace" Flotilla raid? Nope. They were not. Women in combat roles have to undergo extended training and their service is limited. It's not 100% equal in all respects and you're pretending it is. That's the real problem here. You're trying to present everything as a 100% equal in all respects and that is a flat out lie. Logistics =/= Frontline. When your civilizations last hope is to fight or die then it's a moot point. That is the mentality of the IDF. I trained with the IDF while in the USMC. And the British Royal Marines. Not to mention South Koreans and Taiwanese. I've seen how armies structure themselves within the theater of war. Logistics is far removed. In the rear with the gear. Women in the IDF don't serve the exact same amount of time and do not have to serve in combat. They're trained to but not forced to. Nor are they restricted. Most sane human beings do not wish to expose themselves to horrors of combat. Hence, women opt out. Look at any video of near the West Wall and you'll see men. If women and men are 100% equal then half of the time you'd see women. Look at the videos and pics of the checkpoints. You'll see men. Again, not 100% equal like you're pretending it is. This smacks of agenda.

Hello Kitty licensing is not an issue. It wasn't an issue for LotR. When profit is involved, people will jump. That's the real reason. GW and FFG are corporations driven by success, and that means profit. 40K Video games, card games, and board games. They all exist. But they have a style which separates them from the rest. Dilute that style and it slowly stops becoming 40k. Why don't we add dragons, dungeons, and lots of traps and loot? Oh wait...

I predicted what you've failed to understand. You claim I'm "ignorant" (a tired, abused word in the parlance of our times if ever there was one) yet your only objection to Cultural Marxism is a mealy-mouthed Postmodern Relativism (not that you know what any of this means). The argument is a farce as evidenced by the rapid introduction of homosexuals as part of the topic. You must have missed that in my "ignorance." This late in the discussion it would be a waste to point out that the 40K universe is a feudal society.

I think it also bears mentioning that there are very few examples of female IG in the fluff despite what Baron claimed. IG are overwhelmingly (though not exclusively) male based off of all the published material.

Atomic_Pope said:

Cultural Maxism? Dude you need to relax, I am actually a conservative. Name calling and acting like introducing 40K to FSM is somehow going to make the world end is just....well crazy. I am not going to start name calling and I think you need to step back and relax for a moment. I Brought up that topic for a reason, that reason is that it does bother me....WHY because I don't think they should be open about if they are in the military. I wont go further then that but I never liked it when my brothers in the fighting holes next to me talked about their latest sexual conquest. Be careful about how you go about defending your opinion. Attacking people over the internet and calling names is only going to get you banned.

All I did was point out that in modern day military coed combat units do exist, and say that women are unable to fight, while for the majority true as they do not wish too, there is a minority that can do just as well as men.

Atomic_Pope said:

Nice strawman, but you're flailing about:

At no point did we mention the crusades (or Afghanistan). The assertation was there were NO female knights in the middle ages. NONE. As evidenced above, this was NOT TRUE. Some of said orders, such as the Order of the Hatchet, came directly out of combat.

Further: I hate to disillusion you, but the Iberian Peninsula WAS front line duty, by your own definition, at that time, as the Christian's were pushing into the Muslim south (including the Norwegian Crusade of 1107-1110 and the Aragonese Crusade 0f 1284). Also, the Cathar, or Albigensian, Crusade took place in what is now Southern France (1209-1229). In addition, there were several Crusades against the Slavs by the Teutonic Order(13th - 16th Centuries)

And, frankly, you have a very strange idea of what consitutes the front. The idea that just because the enemy comes to you it isn't front line service is the most absurd thing I've heard (next to 'military intelligence'). If you can walk down the street and hang a left and you're in the battle, then you're at the front.

And, by the way, do you think those Soviet Women miraculously left the army when the Russians drove across Europe and into Germany?

On the IDF: yes, a defense force that drove into Egypt. Just because it's called a 'defense force' doesn't mean anything. I seem to recall some armband wearing black uniformed 'bodyguards' in my history of WW2...

And, frankly, NONE of your above post addresses my query: given the nature of 40k, HOW does your interesting anti-feminism rant have anything to do with anything? It's been made abundently clear in 40k fluff that the powers what is have an absolute disregaurd for human life, regaurdless of gender.

This being true, how does your argument hold water in the context of 40k? Because as far as I can see, it doesn't.

Women in the Imperial Guard: GW is so kind as to provide an actual number for women in IG. approx 10%. Not exactly an overwhelming amount, until you factor in the size of the Imperial guard with it's hundreds of millions of regiments and untold billions of guardsmen.

Atomic_Pope said:

BTW: I can't edit for some reason, so: you DO realize that this is an RPG board, right, and that, in very broad strokes, several of the published adventures for Dark Heresy, the 40k RPG, had.... other then the dragon (in a literal sense anyway), all of those things?

Atomic_Pope said:

During the housing bubble credit card debt accounted for 45% of the funds used. Credit cards were a major contributor to the housing bubble. In fact the ramped credit card usage only harms the educational and economic wellbeing of our future generations (see #1 and #2 below). This is a result of a free-market economy with poor regulations.

Their is a economic fact that money in an economy creates jobs. Credit cards remove money from economies. Especially the lower, and middle class . . . the bulk of our society.

#1 It is a fact that the socio economic class of the parents drastically affects the resulting socio economic class of their children. Page 13 of this study . . . http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/Family_Structure.pdf

#2 It is a fact that parents who are savers drastically affects the resulting socio economic class of their children. Further savers do better economically. Page 9 of this study . . .
http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP_Savings_Report.pdf

Blacks in America were subjected to economic injustice. Economics are multigenerational. Blacks in America will be poor for quite a few generations to come. All this is due to "the white man keeping the black man down" (several generations ago, and then some).

I am a graduate student from a conservative college. All higher education boils down to is money and time. I owe all my money and time to being white. My father was a ranking police officer in a township where only white men were hired. My wife's portfolio she inherited from her grandfather came as a result of a job where only white men were in charge. I am not comfortable because I am white, I am comfortable because I have the prerequisite of being white. I can take time off to peruse a graduate degree as a result. In gamers terms I got a bonus to my wealth roll.

Think about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs . . . everything on the list can be acquired though money, or has a fairly strong prerequisite that money brings.