Artemesia: this thing has been going on as long as there have been space marines.

Uncle Arkie: the point was that there is a loophole in canon that would, in theory, permit such a thing. Notice: in canon marines do not burst into flame spontaniously, yet not burn. However, in the Cursed Founding, exactly that happened. Along with a whole spectrum of other highly freaky things. Half of all known chapters founded in the 21st founding came out of it rolling on the Mutations Table, all of whom strain the Inquisition's tolerance for mutants, and some of whom were flat out excommunicated.

And, oddly enough, all this bizzarity is, in fact, canon, feel free to look it up just how messed up it got in Index Astartes.

Artemesia said:

Meh, it could be worse.

Kage

I'm not attacking your need to have female space marines, on the contrary I embrace it, I know that some people like it, but we haven't talked about why? Let the creativeness flow and maybe we can get some good stories from it, be it index astartes weird and so on. As for being called a zealot I don't know, I was kinda saying that we should stop shoehorning it into "canon" and instead embrace that it can't be.

Also something I find interesting about this debate, what is the reason for your need to have female space marines, is it that there is a girl in your group that don't feel comfortable with a male role. Or is it that there is something else? Is it the lack of choice, that the option is taken from you by the fluff and so on or maybe roleplaying represents some kind of option for a transgender experience? This is really interesting stuff. What about female orks?

The reverse question goes as well, why not female marines, besides the obvious, its not codex so it can't be argument. Which oddly enough is my reason, both the various index astartes (as part of a series they can be seen as 1 book), the codex and the core book states that only boys get to join the club I like to try and play in the sandbox that I'v been given and instead of breaking the rules or trying to come up with new "fake" rules adapt to the universe, that is part of the fun because each setting has an internal logic to it that if you change it too much (or sometimes even a little) you lose flavour.

UncleArkie said:

My point is that the argument that it's non-codex isn't valid. Index astartes provides us with plenty of non-codex chapters, and even gives us ways of producing them. This was done to allow non-canon chapters with unusual flavors [see WD 260]. Black Dragons with their mutant blades growing out of thier arms, for example. The idea that one of the chapters that came out of this might be compatable with female tissues is not that far fetched. Heck, they produced marines that if statted would be hulking before putting on the power armor, and would effectivly have regeneration (3) [sons of Anaetus] or had universally had the Molten Man power [Flame Falcons].

UncleArkie said:

Only one real point to make here, that is that the universe is GRIMDARK. That is the flavor to me. You can do a lot of stuff to this universe and still does not lose its flavor. Changing it so that there are FSM is not going to change that Grim and Dark....There is only war...millions die each day so that the billions can live on kind of feel. That at the end of the day your more then likely going to die a horrible death and only your fellows will remember it if they survive.

That is the true essence of the 40K universe. To say that FSM will change that for you is unrealistic. Think about it. Now I will never make the eldar and Humans friends, nor the orks and nids friends. What your saying is that by changing one thing, a small thing really in the grand scheme of things, is like saying because I dip (smokeless tobacco for those in europe...Also for the children dont start the habbit. I am trying to quite.), I am going to do crack tomorrow. The slippery slope illogical argument for those who don't know.

Doesn't any rpg game played in the 40K setting render itself uncanonical?

For myself, I think the argument is typically at cross purposes and usually misses the point that way more questionable stuff is canon, so slipping in a mystery fem-marine blackshield is not suddenly going to mean you're playing in some different setting. That's absurd and absolutist to a ridiculous degree.

I don't accept the existence of Orks in the setting, surely much more setting changing you might think than the possible existence of a very few fem-marines? But then ... most BL novels these days, while clearly accepting Orks exist, almost never mention or feature them. The longrunning HH series for example has feature 0 Ork encounters, and they've been mentioned (usually as 'Greenskins') maybe 3 or 4 times in passing. The same goes for most of Abnett's books; the dozen or so Gaunt books, the Eisenhorn and Ravenor books, the setting is big and the Orks often feel like a holdover from an older, less serious and consistent version to me. So anyway, am I not playing in the 40K setting? Or am I just playing in my 40K setting?

Or, does it fricking matter?

Verisimilitude: the appearance of being true or real. In science verisimilitude measures theories.

Theory A: 1+1=3
Theory B: 1+1=4

Theory A, while still wrong, has more verisimilitude, as it is closer to the truth.

So playing in a game where all Space Marines are male has more verisimilitude to the cannon, than playing in a game where Space Marines are male and female.

I for one think these rules should be adapted to Fallout. A Fallout mod would rock.

BaronIveagh said:

This happened at Gencon? And she was not charged with assault or worse? I have to call shenanigans on this.

BaronIveagh said:

Personally, I've no intent of ever including female marines in my games, but I have absolutely nothing against those that do. I'm more irritated by people who try to lawyer them into the setting rather than just saying "in my game, there are female marines"... either way, you're straying from the nebulous idea of canon, but the latter option seems frankly more honest, rather than trying to impart them with some flicker of legitimacy by introducing them through a loophole.

If you're going to throw out the canon, go ahead and throw it out... it seems like wasted effort to try and justify them with a patchwork of plot hooks, loose ends and loopholes when you could just declare their existence within the context of your own game and be done with it.

As far as I can tell, though, it's quite clear what GW's perspective on the whole thing is: having worked on several books for FFG now, a mandate I'm familiar with is that I cannot make any sweeping or absolute statements about the setting as a whole or any major elements - I have to be more vague about things, deal with them from a local perspective, etc. The fact that the Deathwatch rulebook contains an absolute statement that all Space Marines are male demonstrates to me that this is an area they're very certain about.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I don't see why the second example would annoy you more than the first. I can certainly see why, were one to want to include fem-marines in their games, you might want to make them fit as close to canon as could be achieved, or to give them a hazy rationale to slide them as seamlessly as possible into the setting we know, rather than just flatly state they exist.

'Honesty' is not relevant imo, this would be about making them work in the context of the setting as best as possible.

I don't want or need fem-marines personally, but I don't really understand why some people think they would spell the end of the setting.

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

Nope, they shouted, he pushed her, she slugged him with the carrying case. And it was construed as self defense, since his push constituted assault.

It comes down to the argument of either I want female space marines because I want to play one or I want female space marines because someone in the game wants to play one.

It never comes down to I want female space marines because it makes for a better setting or story. Its a personal reaction to not being able to play a character of a certain gender for a granted class of character. I blame D&D 3E.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I blame Traveler, (D&D 3 had plenty of gender requirement prestige classes, only the core classes were 'any gender', though they did do away with the gender based stat penalties...) but, anyway...

The simple reason is this: as a GM, before I even get to the plot, this come up at character creation, so story isn't even on the table yet. And, I think that, in the case of a GM who might consider the idea, the issue becomes 'how do I fit this in 40k without using the Rule Zero excuse?' since 'because I'm the GM and I say so' is actually a really poor way to run a game.

Personally, it might make for an interesting one off chapter for purposes of story, since it takes the 'different chapter' idea to an extreme that dosen't involve eating human flesh, strange rituals, or the super big grimdark secret. The idea of a female space marine might be shocking in setting to other space marines and how do they adjust. You know, plot beyond: 'We drop pod in and kill everything that moves'.

Considering that the explanation for why there cannot be female space marines is an in-game one - that the gene-seeds are only compatible with male hormones (which, IRL, are found in females too) - we have to consider that it's VERY likely no one in the setting has actually tried to make a female space marine. Instead, the in-game thinkers just accept that it's never happened because they (by and large) just continue to follow the process of making space marines by rote. It could be that the gene-seeds are compatible with females, but no one has attempted such a revolutionary idea in 10,000 years.

HappyDaze said:

Hmmm... the problem is that WD 260 implies that the Inq and admech have, on occasion, extensivly exparimented with the gene seed on the planet Incunabula, even to the extreme of trying to create new primarchs. I have little doubt, given the ruthlessness of the Inq, that they would expariment on a variety of people to further thier understanding.

BaronIveagh said:

Does anything specifically say that they used female test subjects? It seems obvious to us that they would, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they ever came upon the idea.

HappyDaze said:

No, it's one of those lovely 'fragmentary fluff" apocalypse log documents. It only directly talks about a handful of test subjects that the base commander makes in secret to try and determine why mutation is spreading like wildfire among the Space Marine chapters they've produced. Only two test subjects gender can be inferred from it, out of 30 mentioned, both male. (The base commander's group seem to have mutated into astropaths) but it's also stated that there are women working at the base, and that there are many bases across the planet. Logically, at some point, someone will suggest 'Why don't we try this...?" since they created apparently entire new organs for some of the Space marine chapters produced.

Some of the science may be iffy oerall, but its a game, not a science book. Science fiction always has some leway when telling a story (sounds in space battles, light speed, warp travel, and so forth).

And while I personally have no issue with the gene-seed only bonding with males, I could accept the use of tech and gee-whiz-sci-fi-techno-sorcery to implant and create a female space marine.

However, at said point, accoding to all the fluff and other stuff available for reference, this would be a heretical creation, abusing the emperor (male to male) and a massive crime against the Imperium.

And then I could see these female space marines being made by hereteks, chaos apothecaries or even Dark Eldar Haemonculi. But the standard reply would be to cleanse and purify them with faith and fire. Similar to the events of the adventure Edge of Darkness.

I was hoping that some day I get to play in a game where the GM rules that there are female Space Marines. I want to play a man who was trapped in cyro-freeze sometime in the late 25th century. He knows all of the tech-heresies and is totally familiar with how backward the Imperium is. In addition, I want to have huge mech that can transform into a car and a robot on demand and makes cool little sounds.

In addition, my frozen guy knows every spell in the 3.5 Player's Handbookbecause I'm half gnome and half troll named Optimus Prime.

No one is going to argue with my character concept because it's not canonso I'm not only totally magical and mechanical, I exist in a totally different universe.

Shoehorn me in please. I'm ready to roll my stats.

Wodan said:

Now your really using the slippery slope argument here. Also your post is meant to upset, because you yourself are getting upset that people disagree with you. Thats fine, be upset, but please do not add more fuel to the potential flame war. Also thats not shoehorning, that is power gaming, and also mixed systems, and lalalala.

Have a Nice Day.

Better analogies would be:

Male Sister of Battle

Eldar Inquisitor

Orc Rogue Trader

BaronIveagh said:

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a compelling reason to try and make female marines in the first place. There doesn't seem to be any practical benefit (they aren't going to be better at killing). On the other hand I can think of a lot of reasons why people wouldn't even try: waste of geneseed, women have less strength naturally and have less natural aggression, a lot of energy and research necessary for a change that would ultimately be aesthetic, and they would automatically be outlawed as heretical.

Seriously, the notion that there should be female space marines doesn't really translate to in-universe reasons why anyone would actually bother trying to make it happen.

Atheosis said:

If you're drawing from a limited population (like a single world) that has only a small subset of bloodlines that are genetically appropriate, then you should be willing to try females of those lines before other random males. Genetically speaking, the females are more likely to be compatible.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Consider this: the 21st founding? Disaster on Incunabula? It wasn't the Recongregators or any of the obvious radical factions of the Inquisition running the show. It was the Thorians. You know, the 'puritan' sect? Tampering with the sacred geneseed?

Canon fluff prooves just one thing: Heresy is in the eye of the Inquisitor. If this is something backed for whatever reason by one (or more. I can think of one Puritan and two or three Radical that would get on board in a hurry) of the major power blocs within the Inquisition, then it's probably going to fly (If be watched very, very carefully)

I think that it's safe to say that there is nothing that is 'automatically' heretical if the right people are on board. Remember that even Xanthites are shown a certain amount of tolerance.

As far as reasons: it makes for a wider selection of possible canidates, which ensures a higher grade of marine in the first place, lower center of gravity making them superior hand to hand combatants, higher pain tolerance would make for even tougher marines, stronger immune systems (armor against those pesky plague marines), longer lived, learn more efficently, and perform better under stress. They also have better peripheral vision.

All of these are useful traits.

BaronIveagh said:

Just to point out, that's an urban myth. Scientific tests have shown that men have higher pain tolerance than women. The only instance where this isn't the case is childbirth, and that's only because your body then pumps out huge amounts of chemicals to counteract it.

Still, can't most of those things be fulfilled by using various different planetary origins for the male test subjects that have proved pure enough to implant? I still don't see why they would risk wasting geneseed on a long-shot like that when most of those traits can be procured in males, which are known to be compatible, from various different planets with different environments.

Remember, this is the Imperium, it's a huge place. None of those traits would be impossible for men to have given different planetary environmental factors and (from the present) 39,000 years worth of genetic mutations, genetic drift, and plain ol' evolution.