Amen! Everything is exactly as you said.

What's worse, I don't get people who even have problems with SoB fighting alongside a Deathwatch kill-team, much less female Astartes. What's up with that? Serious sexual insecurity issues or something?

I mean, expressing dislike I get, but trolling about it? Really?

I just wanted to post to see if what I could do to help get this post to 28 pages. God Bless the Internet.

You'd think after years of posting to Dakka that HBMC would realize that saying 'This thread should die! DIE NOW!" is a sure fire way for it to roll on into infinity....

I bet that several of those people, who keep yelling die die die, on this thread, Have been hit in the head to many times by their female compatriots. So...They got stuck on repeat.

Personally I'm still interested in seeing solutions rather than pulling out a micrometer screw-guage for twig measuring. And by "solution" I'm talking about options rather than the idea that one should just write another supplement that perpetuates the posturing. Even interpretation is better than that.

Kage

Eh, Kage, frankly, the cursed founding option is probably the only way out this debate has. It's a canon way to make non-codex chapters. This allows FSM players to have thier chapters without anyone taking a hacksaw to fluff.

Kidding aside, the OP's idea isn't a horrible one if you're looking at a way to bring them in without nuking the fluff. For one to incorporate it into Deathwatch might be a little trickier, as you'd have to figure out *why* it was removed form the history books (a reason better than "NO GURLZ!!!1!"), then why the DW would allow someone of such a dark history to join the watch (as Gatling pointed out).

Everything I can think of that would make the Empire 'forget' they existed means that groups like the Inquisition might be quick to shoot first and ask questions later. But that said, Inquisitors do all kinds of f'd up stuff to reach their goals, so who is to say a particular watch commander, kill team, or inquisitor who witnessed them in the field wouldn't see them as a potential short term ally, or at least a tool? Sure they wouldn't give them any cool stuff or insider info, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend, right? Or alternatley, maybe they pretend to be their ally and lead them on long all the while trying to figure out who they are, what they were doing, and where they came from- maybe they're a risk to the stability of the Empire and maybe not, but shooting them may not get you the answer.

Hell, they have a book with an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor allying with Eldar- now no one brags about that or the ordo would probably execute the Inquisitor in question, but it says that the inquisition isn't cookie cutter, and that there are some individuals wouldn't think the ends would justify the means, even if it means disobeying their creed/code/orders.

You don't break canon with it (it's never actually denied in writing, is it?), and you could potentially create some very interesting and unique role playing opportunities there.

Charmander said:

Well heck. With what you've said here, if a group wants to throw one in, have her as a black shield. The inquistor put her on the team on their own. No one knows where he found this marine and it's a puzzle why they won't remove their armor. Any of a dozen ways into that set up: a cursed founding chapter, an unsanctioned radical inquisitor's experiments, slaanesh followers gave it a shot and the unlucky subjects were recaptured, mindwiped and handed over to the inquisition.

The mystery knight under the black shield is a happy old trope.

Good post Charmander.

I was just thinking that. A perfect way of getting them in is the Black Shields, You dont ask questions and you allow them in.

Remember too that some chapters are just poorly documented in general, even among the canon ones. Sons of Aneatus are a 21st founding that have only ever been seen once by other Imperials. Given Imperial recordkeeping, a chapter might be lost for entirely non-sinister reasons. Such as the three or four accounts of them by non-members being misfiled someplace by the Administratum

Atheosis said:

LOL owned. Good job as usual. "...So I can play a 40k Space Marine game the way it's supposed to be played." Exactly.

BTWthere's no need to find a solution because there's no problem. The only problem are some people who can't either

read or accept a universe that isn't politically correct. I guess people can't stand the idea of sticking to canon. It must just

bother them to no end to play the game correctly. It must just irk them to tears that female Space Marines don't exist because

they just DEMAND Marxism and political correctness at every point in their lives. They just rage at a universe that doesn't fit their

narrow and completely ridiculous world view where there are differences in the sexes that are concrete and absolute.

BaronIveagh said:

It doesn't matter how poorly documented they are, female Space Marines don't exist and will never exist. I've posted a link to the exact page in canon where it says that, and there's no denying it.

If you want to have women Space Marines, and can't handle the idea that the Sisters of Battle fulfill that role, do me a favor and say that you don't play in or run Deathwatch but instead have adopted the Marxist political correct brand and adapted the above mentioned product to fit your liberalism.

If you'd just come out and say that, it would be that much easier for everyone.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marine

During the recruitment and enhancement process, some recruits may not survive the initial rigours of training and the later medical treatments one must undergo to become a full-fledged Battle-Brother. First and foremost, a potential Space Marine recruit must be male, as the gene-seed and the developing Space Marine organ zygotes are compatible only with male hormones. The three following requirements also apply:

* Space Marine recruits must be adolescents or very young adults, as the implants must be able to coordinate with a human male's natural growth hormones during adolescence to stimulate the growth and development of the various unique physiological features of a Space Marine. In specific terms, the recruit must be about 10-16 Terran standard years of age.

* Much like a blood transfusion or organ transplant, there must be genetic compatibility between the recruit and the implants; otherwise organ failure may result, causing the recruit to die or simply degenerate into a state of madness.

* The mental state of a potential space Marine must also be susceptible to the various training and psycho-conditioning regimes of the Chapter, and cannot be tainted by the Ruinous Powers of Chaos.

Your pointing to Cannon is a moot point. Why? Because NO GAME OF DW IS 100% CANNON! Geez, get over yourselves.

Also how does having FSM make the game PC? The Imperium will still be geoncidial and xenophobic and all sorts of other kinds of grim dark.

BaronIveagh said:

Except it's not, because there's a line in one of the Horus Heresy novels wherein Horus is remembering the "lost Brothers" of the two Cursed Chapters.

So they're definitely male(insofar as Astartes can be), and there's no way for them to be FSM.

OH NO! They got us. The horus heresy book says so. Dang... Well I guess i better go tell my Girl Friend that. OH wait...She doesnt care. And nor do I. Well it looks like you were just out voted my friend. Sorry.

See how easy life is when you stop arguing about the small details in life, when instead you should be putting more energy into coming up a Better fantasy setting, or curing world hunger.

Just a Thought.

Kanluwen said:

Kanwulen, you're geting the 'Cursed' 21st founding, with all it's mutant space marines, confused with the Lost Legions.

The 21st founding was the source of such deviant chapters as the Flame Falcons, Black Dragons, Legion of the Damned, Sons of Anaetus, Lamenters, etc. It came about when the Inquisition and the AdMech decided that they could make 'better' space marines and replicate the Primarch Project. Needless to say, this is 40k, and things did not go well.

Particularly when Fabius Bile found out about it.

It's not known how many chapters were created, as the records were expunged. Of the six known, three were mutants, one became the Legion of the Damned, the Minotaurs are bloodthirsty to the point of being one step removed from Khornate berzerkers, and the Lamenters continue to be dogged by the universe's worst luck.

BaronIveagh said:

Uh no, actually I'm not.

Because there wasn't any possible way for Horus himself to have been around for the 21st Founding.

So yeah. There's no possible way, at all, for the two unknown Primarchs to have been females, considering Horus actually referred to them as his " Brothers, with their destinies to end in misfortune and glories left unfilled" .

Pretty much says it all right there, end of story.

Kanluwen said:

I think you're confusing "cursed founding," with "lost chapters"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cursed_Founding

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

Also, "brothers" could entirely be a generic term (consider co-ed fraternities, I've seen some refer to female members as "brothers").

@Ranek, Baron, and others:

I get what you're saying. Really, I do. I understand that whatever game I run is in fact, not canon (note the one n, not being mean, it just is a bit irksome).

I know that GW does not stamp their approval on my game.

Does it therefore mean that I am in fact "stupid" that I would like to stick with established canon in my games? While it is not canon, I would like to run a game that "fits within the canon."

There is a totally separate argument here (as in this doesn't relate to the FSM debate):

In tabletop RPGs, is a mutable setting a "good" thing.

And in all honesty, this is something that varies by group. Personally, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. In my personal life, I tend towards the Lawful Neutral side of the spectrum. You might like it, but please accept that others do not.

Now what I mean by a mutable setting, is one that changes to fit closer to the desires of the players (gm included). Details are not important, "fun" is all that matters. If something is troublesome, toss it out.

Others see the setting as something to embrace, and work around, without actually changing the settings, but working with, and within it.

All I politely ask is that you do not judge those that do it a different way from you. This really is the sort of thing we have to agree that we disagree on.

Your right, and I have said it earlier in the thread, that I can agree to disagree. I am just pointing out that quoting 'canon' to those, who are like me and do toss somethings out for the sake of having fun, is pointless. That is all I was saying. Also to those who cry Foul, that their beloved game is somehow cheapened by those players who do the hello kitty armies or what have you, should take a breather. I could care less what you do in your games. If your gming something and you think FSM are stupid and heretical. Thats your call, and I (if i happened to be playing your game) could care less. If you wanted to have FSM So that your girl friend or wife could feel better about playing, well thats your call and I could care less.

I know that most of the posters here are mature adults, but....well some of the posters get so upset over the idea its funny. Not the hahaha grandma and grandpa went sky diving, but more like listening to that spoiled brat playing halo and trash talking kind of funny. (which in truth is not funny)

I have no problem with what other people do in thier games. My only real problem is that when I post an idea about how it might be possible to shoehorn an idea in without breaking canon too badly, I get the same sort of response as if I was feeding live kittens into a blender.

Occasionally, the responses have little to nothing to do with anything I suggested and focus solely on the words 'female space marine'.

Personally, I think that any given idea should be evaluated as much on it's own merits as much as it's subject matter. What really seems strange to me is that by and large the setting is actually meant to be basically a mutable sandbox setting. For some reason, this particular subject makes people crazy. I would love to see the reaction if they took this same stance and applied it to people who kitbash/mold resin minis on, for example, CMON.

"That's not canon! How DARE you sculpt/kitbash a Tau walker/Chaos Light Cruiser/cigar smoking space marine!?!?!"

Ok so now that I'v read the book I just get this debate even less, its stated, several times in this canon work that marines can only be male, its repeated endlessly, the GW guys say it, you cannot force it into a canon setting. So with that done, its over, you can't have you cake and eat it. So end that debate and live with it, if you want to discuss how to develop a non WH40K setting that is very much like 40K, but has female marines, or a reborn emperor or what not then go ahead, talk about it, just don't shoehorn it.

As for a marine with a cigar, I fail to see the problem, they are space marines, not vegan wannabe breathtarians at some carrot spa off the dead sea. Space wolves drink and fornicate, to a point where one of the signature characters of the chapter is known for his "manliness" so I doubt its an issue.

But back to women space marines, do they have to be marines at all is the question? Use the same character generation rules and instead of the marine special abilities give her something else (or explain them with expensive cybernetic reconstruction) like faith, or being an untouchable or an officio asassinorum killer or a ton of other things.

I seriously cannot believe this is still going. What a waste of bandwidth.

UncleArkie said:

Ok.... I guess you missed the other points. That no game is 100% canon . You can call your game canon, you can praise it for following the story, etc. But unless you know an author for BL or work for GW and have your stuff written into the next space marine codex or what have you, its not going to be canon. Deal with it. Nor should you worry about what other people do in their games, if it does not effect you. Its the whole nerd-rage thing that is keeping you from seeing the truth of the matter. The truth of the matter is, that people will do what they see is best. For you that is 'believing' that your game is canon. For others, the truth is that there are female marines.

The problem is that some of you feel that the Canon is a holy bible, or koran. And Thus are acting like fanatical zealots attacking people for thinking differently than you. Sad isn't it?

So I am going to stop wasting my energy arguing with you gents or ladies. Regardless, have fun with the setting and let people from different gaming groups than your own do their own thing. After all another group of gamers having fun and playing with a female marine in their group normally means more copies of death watch sold. That also means the game can continue on.