More than 7 points of armour inflicts a hefty -30 to conceal and sneak tests.

Have people been playing that being in addition to the size increase from heavy power armour?

Has any one been using a more graduated system. Say for example, -10 for 5-7 points of armour?

Face Eater said:

I like the idea of a more graded system but we've got nothing "official" yet. Otherwise, why would my Assassin not creap around in Carapace armour all the time? (Despite getting no penalties for it, I still can't bring myself to do it. I figure that's what Best Quality Xeno Mesh and Hardened Bodygloves are for. At most, I might be OK with a carapace breastplate but...)

Even when you consider guard flak armour: it's "only" AP 4 but it weights 11 kg. Shouldn't it be a little heavy for sneaking around? And don't even get me started on the fact that Feudal Plate has no penalties at all...

Maybe a good rule of thumb:

• AP 7 or more: -30 penality to Sneak/Conceal. Each AP less than that reduces by 1 degree of difficulty until it gets to Challenging (+0%), so
• AP 6: -20 Penalty
• AP 5: -10 Penalty
• AP 4 or less: no penalty.

I might be inclined to reduce the penalties by 1/2 a step for Good qaulity armour and 1 full step for Best quality. It's not perfect, (you could get a -0% Feudal plate made) but at least it's a little more realistic. Might even consider making a Sneak/Concealment test Ordinary (+10%) for someone wearing no armour or, say, armour with an AP of 2 or less? I like the spirit of it at least. It rewards those stealthy characters who choose mobility over armour.

What do guys you think?

My group and i use a simple system for all of it with reguards to the stealth penalties etc... As follows....As long as its a fabric type ( xeno mesh, bodygloves, and YES flak Armor) there are no penalties for it on stealth rolls. If its hard armor types ( carapace of ANY kind or stronger then stealth is penalized. Example: PC with carapace breastplate has a -10% to stealth checks Same PC with full carapace armor suit has -30% and ANY charater in power armor has NO stealth ( unless the suit is lightweight masterworked and designed for stealth specifically and then it STILL gets a -15%). This rule tends to keep my assassins and usually the rest of the crew in the lighter armors normally for ease of mobility and balance of armor protection.

As for the comment about flak armor...the weight is distributed throughout the upper body and really doesnt hinder overall movement or stealth since the flak armor IS a woven synthetic Fabric ( just very dense and slightly puffy ) but not something that makes noise or actually hinders mobility much if any at all.

One thing to consider is to class the penalty by weight of the armour, over the AP it provides.

KommissarK said:

Also, base the stealth penalty on the base AP of the Armor in question, not the adjusted value for Quality.

-=Brother Praetus=-

I think AP aren´t any good as a base

For example, why should a normal quality carapace breast plate hinder you in sneaking? It isn´t "clanking" since it is well strapped to your body.

Same is true for flakk armour, me guesses. I see more problem if you want to squeeze through something. Even if I consider underbrush, the only problem is the added bulk.

"Bad quality" might be a different treat altogether, since things might not be strapped that good and start to collide with each other while moving.

All in all, I think the question is "will some parts touch any other parts or will they make noise per se while one simply moves around?"

I could imagine that chainmail will be a problem. I do not now about "mesh armour". I imagine it is more like plastique, so might be much more quiet. Feudal plate will make noise, me guesses. As long as it is similiar to a middle ages knight full armour. Think about like the "half-plates" greek hoblite warriors wore and you might be in for a different treat..

All in all, I guess one would have to consider any armour "piece by piece"..

Armour has straps and buckles and may creak and such. CLink and clank. And it also may affect your mobility and balance which can make it more difficult for you to move stealthily (even though the armour itself does not make noise.). It might distact you/inhibit you just enough to make you make a mistake you would not do in lighter clothing/armour.

As it is, I find the stealth rules pretty generous. I come from games where whereing anything other than a burlap sack brought on a parade or largely arbitrary penalties that didn't really bring anything to the table. I tend to think it's imprtant to have a certain respect for realism but not t the cost of bean counting and overly complex rules. Weight is probably a more realisitc way to go if one is looking for a system... Though I think the system was primarily designed to penalise stealth in Power Armour.

Maybe I'll just leave things as is and start shopping for a Best Quality Carapace Breastplate!

Gregorius21778 said:

I think you are on the right track here... most people think that armor is heavy, cumbersome, makes you unable to move well and is constantly clicking and clanking while you move like hollywood plate. But there is really not necessary for even rigid armors (and remember even leather armor is rigid, not just plate/carapace) to be noisy, unless it is poor quality or badly fit. Even chainmail doesen't necessarily make noise even when jumping up and down (yes I have seen this), and remmeber even modern ballistic vests have straps to fasten it without being creaky (they make noise when you take it off though).

The worst part about armor really is the heat - even modern armor makes you sweat alot as it doesen't breathe well, and I guess flak armor is little different, after all in the dark future of 40k there is no comfort - there is only war.

I also seem to remember that SM scouts, which are sneaky as hell, use Carapace armor because power armor is too noisy - which seem to indicate that Carapace can be quiet.

Wether you can wear Carapace without attracting attention or when infiltrating a nobles' ball however is another matter - unless extremely well fitted it will probably be visible even through loose clothing, and you can forget about tight clothing. except underneath it. This is why my group all use good quality xeno mesh - good protection, quiet, relatively comfortable (based on Eldar tech), and concealable under clothing. It even has a mesh cowl that you can pull up when **** hits the fan.

I would go the other way. Give body-gloves and similar stealth-themed items a bonus. Modern armor does not prevent you from sneaking, but highly mobile cammo armor might help you.

Honn said:

There already exists such armors and clothing...Chameleoline suit, thermal armored bodyglove etc.

I was thinking more otr less exactly the same, with one small (but largely irrelevant) modification.

If I'm not mistaking, the Adeptus Soritas Power Armour has AP7, and the somewhat substantially more bulky-looking Ignatus Pattern Power Armour (Ascencion) has an AP of 8, as does the Astartes Armour from Deathwatch (if what I hear is correct). Aslo, giving SM's a hefty -40 to Silent Move/Concealment would be a bit much, with the way the armour works for them (connected to them). I also Thin a -30 for the Adeptus Soritas is a bit harsh, but theese armours may be an exception rather than the rule as it were. Just a thought, but I like what I see, and I'm going to implement your interpreation in my own rules.

Macharias the Mendicant said:

I would take a different approach

Mesh Armour, No penalty
Flak Armour, -10 penalty
etc.

Don't couple the penalty to armour point but to armour type...

What's your opinion on a -10 to agility tests for every 10 full kilos of armour worn?

Maybe with a cap.

I know its not that realistic but I dont want to achieve perfect realism, just some easy way to determine penalties.

I'm afraid its kinda harsh though.

As I have a fair amount of experience wearing replicas of various medival armor types I'd say: If you want a really good system to reflect armor penalties the system is going to be veeery complex.

If you want something simple you can as well stick to RAW because all simple changes are going to be differen but not better.

For example the chainmail: its heavy and after some time it gets uncompfortable because most of the weight is pressing onto your shoulders like a badfitting backpack. And if worn as outer layer of garments it makes sound and is shining. If you wear something else over it it's nearly noisless and invisible.
If you are stong enough and are used to wearing a chainmail for long times it's no problem to keep it on say 23 of 24 hours, just taking it of for washing youself. You can even sleep in a chainmail once you get the muscles you use for breathing up to the task of lifting it up with every breath you take.
Yes, I had a bad case of muscle ache after the first night.

Platemail: It is even heavier than chainmail but the weight is distributet much better.
If wearing only a breathplate, bracers, leg protectors and helmet it can be nearly compfortable and apart from the weight doesnt cut down your agility very much.
I've never worn full plate but there are people who can, while wearing custom tailored plate, do flik-flak and cartwheels on a meadow.

Plate and chain: often combined for protection this is a armor type which makes it utterly impossible to be sneaky because the chain rattles on the plate like hell. Sorry, no sneaking.

Leather: Depends on whether it's hardened or soft. Both are much lighter than metal armors but as bad or even worse for sound.

What all medival armors have in common is one thing: They stink. Eighter of sweat (leather/cloth) or oil and rust (metal). So anyone with heightened sense (smell) shoud get a bonus to detect anyone with primitive armor.

And every full helmet impairs your sight and hearing.
I one time had to lead another guy in Plate and chain with full helmet and chain neckguard through a forest at night.
He was absolutely helpless. The noise he made drowned out every sound so he was deaf and the slits in the helmet were too small for the light condition.