I came from a New World of Darkness background, it is my first time playing the game, i was a Narrator in WOD, i need to do it in dark heresy, but i need to understand the rules, and i have problems with many, especially the ones about hiding and stealth, and about investigation. i dont understand the logic about the stealth, been done not when you actually hide, but when somebody seeks for you. it is a little as a loop, since nobody will seek for a hiding person, if they dont notice something! Thats makes me more difficult to rule about the surprise rule, since i dont know when somebody can be decreed as surprised, since the details in the book are a little open to interpretation. Please, somebody that knows well the rules, help!!!!

dosan said:

Right...

A player who wishes his/her character to sneak/hide merely has to state that intention at first. If there's nobody around, then there's nothing to hide from, and thus you don't need to test.

However, as soon as the sneaking character approaches someone else, then tests become involved. Awareness tests, used to oppose Concealment and Silent Move tests, are considered passive - a character always has a chance to spot something; they don't have to be actively looking for it. Thus, the character will attempt the Awareness test whether or not they're actively looking.

Both tests are subject to the normal guidelines about test difficulty, so the situation matters quite a bit. Moving around in the dark, wearing dark clothing is going to grant a bonus to Concealment tests, while moving across gravel or broken glass may impose a penalty on Silent Move tests. Similarly, someone who is expecting trouble may be more aware than someone who isn't, gaining a bonus on their Awareness test.

I'll sum it up with an example, as that's often the easiest way to convey this sort of info.

Sabrielle, an Assassin, is attempting to infiltrate an abandoned factory now used as a base by cultists. She moves swiftly and silently towards the factory, spotting the guards stood near the door. She needs to avoid their attention while she moves around the building to enter from somewhere less conspicuous.

As the guards aren't looking in her direction, Sabrielle makes a Silent Move test (to avoid making noise that will make them look over), while the guards attempt an Awareness test to spot her. Sabrielle has an Agility of 45 and Silent Move +10, while the guards are Perception 38 and trained in Awareness. Sabrielle rolls a 36, scoring 1 degree of success, while the guards roll a 45 and a 98, both of which fail, and Sabrielle slips past them without difficulty.

After scaling the back wall and climbing through a window, Sabrielle moves carefully through the upper walkways of the factory, too far up to attract attention, until she spots a cultist moving along the walkway ahead. He's headed in her direction, and will see her if she doesn't act quickly. Sabrielle makes a Concealment test to hide herself, while the cultist makes an Awareness test to see if he spots her. Sabrielle has Concealment +10, and is in a dark place wearing dark clothing, gaining a further +10 to her test, and rolls a 65 - only just succeeding - while the cultist has a Perception of 33, but is more concerned with his Lho-stick and isn't really paying attention, imposing a -10 penalty on his Awareness test, rolling a 34 and failing to spot the assassin.

The danger passed, Sabrielle moves on, descending a set of stairs that lead to what was once the overseer's office, where her target is currently hidden. The corridor is well-lit and the guards are watchful for any sign of trouble. Approaching directly is impossible without being noticed, but there is an air vent in the wall further along the corridor, open where the grate has fallen off, and just large enough for Sabrielle to squeeze through. It'll be difficult, but it's possible to get to the vent, slip inside and get into the room without being detected. Sabrielle needs to move silently again, this time with a -10 penalty because of needing to slip through the vent, while the two guards (Perception 38, Awareness +10) get a +10 bonus for being alert and vigilant. Sabrielle rolls a 68, while the guards roll an 89 and a 91... everyone fails. As this situation isn't one where a stalemate is an appropriate result, the test is rerolled (GM's discretion for this, but following the normal rules for opposed tests), and Sabrielle rolls a 4, scoring 4 degrees of success, while the guards roll 11 and 23, scoring 4 and 3 degrees of success, respectively. As Sabrielle's agility bonus of 4 is higher than the guards' perception bonus of 3, she wins the tie and narrowly makes it through undetected.

Hopefully that makes some sense...

Thanks for your reply. That means that Silent move is used when one is moving , and conceal is a different skill , just used for been inmobile? Thanks again

dosan said:

Sort of; Silent Move is most commonly an active skill, used when you're trying to accomplish something, while Concealment is more commonly passive, used more when you're reacting to or avoiding something.

NO 1 got it right I think, or at least a valid interpretation of rules that are admittedly unclear.

Although I think it is obvious that you don't have to actively search for someone to get an Awareness test (after all there is a Search skill), it's not always obvious if you use Silent Move, Conceal, Shadowing, or both/all three.

Also there is a problem in this system with opposed checks in combination with success tests: Which side needs to get a success?

For example, Sabrielle with 55 Silent move tries to sneak past a guard (let's say he has his back towards her for simplicity, so there is no question of skill used). She rolls 57 on her dice... aww! Close but no sigar. Then the guard rolls 100 on his Perception check, thus failing by no less than 6 DoS!

Since both did fail, which one failed the most? You could say the guard obviously, but then again maybe he wasn't supposed to need an Awareness test anyway since Sabrielle, the active part, failed her test. (I'm ignoring the partial success option from IH here).

Now if we decide that Sabrielle failed, is is clear that it is much harder to sneak by someone than it is to detect someone sneaking. Not only is a success needed (which usually is at about 31% chance for a trained average character), but the enemy even gets a chance to detect you despite your success.

There are probably other skills where it is not clear which side needs to get a success, or if both or neither can get by with one.

So about skills choise: Silent Move is of course about sneaking - but sneaking involves more than just moving silently - using cover and concealment to avoid being seen is obviously part of it but not necessarily "silent move."

Concealment can be interpreted as using camoflague, hiding in bushes etc, but doesen't necessarily imply being stationary.

Shadowing is about being someone's "Shadow" - moving after them and following them while undetected. Now it seems weird to me to need yet another skill just for using Silent Move and Concealing yourself so you can sneak after someone - it's more likely that Shadowing is not necessarily being unseen but rather being unnoticed - from following someone through a crowd or even with a car without having the mark realize you are doing anything but your normal routine. Also, Shadowing is an advanced skill, which means you need special training just to be able to TRY. Thus I reserve this skill use for following others in urban/populated environments.

Awareness vs Search: Yet another conundrum. The Scum with +20% Awareness will be adept at discovering ambushes or foiling pickpockets - but if he hasn't got Search he has little chance of finding what he's looking for. Will "I check the back yard for anyone hiding" require a Search or Awareness? What about noticing a trap, or the fact that a cultist has a special tattoo on his neck?

The way I've handled it so far is to use Awareness for "combat" or noticing by chance or by being alert, while retaining Search for methodically going through a crime scene or seaching a library for a certain tome. For NPCs, Search will be mostly used for frisking for concealed weapons the PCs will try to carry and conceal with Sleight of Hand.

Friend of the Dork said:

Actually, this is a commonly overlooked part of the Opposed Test rules.

In actual fact, the situation is covered in the rulebook (page 184). If both parties fail, one of two things occurs: either there is a stalemate, and nothing happens (which makes sense for tests like grappling or holding a door against someone trying to bash their way in), or you re-roll the test to determine the winner (which makes sense for stealthy activities - otherwise you end up with, as noted before, noisy assassin, deaf guard syndrome). Which one occurs is determined by the GM. Neither situation requires comparison of Degrees of Failure.

Friend of the Dork said:

You've pretty much got it; broadly speaking, some skills fit better into some situations than others, and some situations may not permit the use of certain skills (moving through a well-lit room behind a guard facing the other way should allow no concealment test, because there's nothing to hide behind, but is certainly a silent move test), while avoiding the artificial gaze of a security camera that has no audio function will never require a Silent Move test (it can't hear you), but will require a Concealment test to avoid (so long as there's some way to remain out of sight of it.

You're on the nose with Shadowing - it's nothing to do with being unseen, and more to do with following someone without letting them realise that's what you're doing.

Friend of the Dork said:

You've essentially got it right there. If you're actively looking for something, then Search - Awareness is almost always a reaction to something else, while Search is used when actively seeking something. The rulebook notes this briefly - Awareness tests are free actions in reaction to something, Search tests take several minutes.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Hmm yeah I remember reading something akin to this, but I don't quite agree with the "no one wins", as in opposed test one is attempting something and the other is trying to prevent that. So if you're trying to hold back the door against someone trying to break it up, a tie saying "nothing happens" means the defender wins... which would be the same if the defender actually won the test. Same with grappling really. A situation I could think of would be if two tries to hit a target with a dart - both fails means both miss the target completely.

As for the rerolls, it's fairly unelegant solution, especially if both sides have bad skills (say two normal unskilled people having 15% chance of success), in which case just seeing who failed more would be better IMO.

Seems like we agree pretty much on everything else. I'm not very happy with the skill system in the game though, and think we could have boiled down the skills to broader categories - one adept at being unseen would probably also be good at moving silently - i.e. Stealth. And do we really need Forbidden Lore: Heresy/Cults? But that is a matter of houseruling anyway. I don't bother that ATM.