So it appears that my players are bound and determined to almost always bring along 10-30 extra armsmen with them whenever they go planetside...they seem to really like the idea that they can do this.

My question is how should i handle this when they are facing only a handful of enemies. We're running "Into the Maw", and they next combat is most likely going to be vs. Lady Ash and 2 Battle Servitors on the bridge of the Righteous Path. So that's 5 PCs + XX armsmen vs. 1 Psyker and 2 Servitors.

How would I go about handling this? My understanding is that a mass combat group cannot attack a player or NPC...and vice versa. Have I misread the rules on this? If there's no mass combat group for the armsmen to fight, what should I do with them?

Give Lady ash the fear causing psychic power possibly?

I always find fear can put enough of a hamper on npc attachments, who probally wont have high willpower, that the players may end up reconsidering bringing them everywhere with them in the future.

Or just let her use her psychic powers from a safe spot on the weaker targets, I'm pretty sure she can see through her psy-eagle.

My players tend to take 10-30 troops with them when they enter what they expect to be a difficult situation. As a result, so do most significant NPCs. There's no reason that small groups on NPCs in your scenarios can't be backed up by mercs, cultists, servitors, or any number of other disposable warriors. Let the generic fighters keep each other occupied while the Explorers and significant NPCs go at it head-to-head.

I'm with Attila. My Rogue Trader has an elite Honour Guard who accompany him on away missions (it only makes sense for such an important individual to be well-guarded) so the GM just scales encounters up accordingly, adding a few more of each enemy or making them harder adversaries (we were tangling with a couple of Chaos Marines the other day. That was a quick end to two of my Fate Points...)

Similarly, when we don't have as many people as is expected by a book adventure or anticipated by the GM, he throttles it back a bit. We're just doing a DH book adventure and sent potential NPC allies off to watch our backs, leaving us comparatively undermanned. He took out one of the major threats as a result to keep it balanced.

- Some NPC may see this as an insult or an affront to their hospitality causing them less PF in the end. (Upkeep of dangerous, salary, extra lander etc.)

- The PC's honor guard get used against the PC or one leaks information leading to a few PF loss or worst. A full gamer could be around finding the leak and plugging it or using it against the enemy.

- They loose some renown for being over "scared" by any situation where other rogue traders more daring or secretive secure more juicy trades from barbaric proud races etc. Sm would laugh at an over protected rogue trader visiting them with a mighty escort etc.

- Some of the Honor Guard get heavy handed in a dramatic situation leading to a fight caused by the HG and thus putting the PC in a bad spot. Could escalate all the way to civil war etc. Was this caused by an enemy rogue trader paying the guard? was it a psyker using the guard? are the guards getting too infatuated with their position.

- The honor guard are under direct orders to keep the Scion of the house out of harms way and are always "moving" him around like a presidencial escort. getting more a distraction that as to be circumvented, use their over protective nature against the player.

- The honor guard is secretly part of the Inquisition (maybe 1/3) and are waiting for the PC to show heretic behaviors out side of their writ of commerce.

etc.

Just be deceptive about it, not to direct, maybe showing that having them always around the PC directly makes clients or other dignitary not happy costing them PF in the long run then when they are more in a retreated position, it gives you a bit of room to use them as exit points or reinforcement for turning points in a fight, etc.

• First: Realize this isn't D&D, they are massively powerful individuals who SHOULD be taking honor guards.
• as was mentioned, scale encounters. You need to learn to deal with the immense amount of power your players are going to have at their disposal. What will you do when they threaten to use orbital bombardment? Plan for it, accept it.
• Have your players PAID for a trained honor guard? Building a military is a big part of the game. Or are they just bringing bilge rabble with them, who were hired to work on a ship, not fight monsters? If they haven't paid for it they have a) poor morale b) poor logistics c) poor tactics d) poor training e) no armor. They should get slaughtered by anything more dangerous than a brawl or riot. When they die it should hurt the crews morale.
• You are wrong about mass combat, you can (and should) allow mobs to attack individuals, though you sometimes need to get creative to make it work. Never let how rules are written get in the way of how things need to work, individuals don't magically become immune to groups, thats silly. I generally "roll for effect" with large groups. The group attacks (modified by their skill and size), the player rolls an agility save to see how much damage they avoid, then I roll damage, subtracting an appropriate amount for their agility roll.

You need to adjust to the power level of the setting. This is not D&D or Dark Heresy. Just wait until they have HUNDREDS of troops at their disposal, and tanks, and air support.

You just need to change the way you think about DMing. You are not making encounters for an adventuring group, you are making encounters for an army, a fleet, a dynasty. There are lots of different ways to do that, and you should use many of them. Here are some example encounters scaled to RT:

• The bad guy has the macguffin item in his fortress. The players lay siege and sneak in during the chaos.
• The tribal leader has archeo-tech they need. The players call in an orbital strike, claming to be sent from their god (the god emperor) and demanding their loyalty.
• The players have to attend a state dinner (no guards or heavy weapons allowed, only the fanciest of armor would be tolerated as ceremonial). An ambush or assasination takes place.
• The players and a rival trader are both trying to get the same thing. Threats and military action ensue.
• A certain hotel snubs the players and wont let them look at some important documents. The players BUY THE FRIGGIN HOTEL!

I apoligize for sounding like a broken record, but I am going to say it again, because this is important: this is NOT D&D or DH, this is Rogue Trader, where the players have the power to subdue worlds, or buy them, where they fly a ship capable of cracking continents, and they command the loyalty of tens of thousands of minions.

Don't spend your time trying to rob them of their power and turn it into a D&D campaign. Revel in the scope, plan for it. You are playing at a whole new scale. Their enemies are not monsters, they are fleets. Their rivals aren't individuals, but dynasties. Their encounters aren't dungeon crawls, but galaxy spanning endevors. This is Rogue Trader, and it is one of the most unique RPGs out there.

indeed robing them of the escort should only be a once in a while very rare occasion thing not the usual but to achieve this rare totally tipical dungon crawl feel you need those way to take out the honor guard 1st

Agreed. The only time you should be isolating them from their power base is if you are going for a certain "feel": isolated, dungeon crawl, unprepared, vulnerable. There are times where it is appropriate and thematic, but it should be the exception, not the rule.

Also a few of the kunnin' ones may have used a sewer access allowing for a charge within the PC's direct circle if you want that more direct dice rolling thing... (replace kunnin' by kreepers, etc.)

Again this should not be a constant else it removes the feel of Holy Emperor's no2!

Thanks for the advice once again. I think part of the issue is that I'm running "Into the Maw", which seems to be geared just a group of PCs rather than PCs + lots of other troops. Looks like I'm going to have to start customizing the published adventures a bit more.

And yes, I do come from a D&D background and the transition into the scale of RT has been a bit of a struggle. Thanks for the continued advice...every bit helps!

I've made a deal with my players, if they won't take 30 to 100 troops planet side every time, I won't mess with their honour guard and turn them into the nearest available assassin.
I also warned them, smaller groups are often more effective, moving a group of 10 is far easier than 100

Santiago said:

Sorry to sound harsh, but that seems unfortunate, a bit lazy, and overly meta gamey. It would ruin the suspension of disbelief.

First of all this is a game of power, prestige, and epic dynasties. Why would you discourage them from developing their military and excersizing it? If you want to play D&D or DH with a space ship...play that instead. The rules are better suited to it. By forcing your players to "think small" you are robbing yourself and them of some of the best moments of RT.

Artificially limiting your players choices with meta-game consequences in ANY game will is detrimental to the experience. As long as they have to deal with realistic consequences (and not a GM fiat like "one of your guards will randomly be an assassin) than thing wont spiral out of control.

The job of the GM is to facilitate a story and simulate the universe. Not author a story that their players have to play through like in a video game. A GM is not an author, not a movie director. You get to write the characters in a story, come up with some diabolical plots, design worlds, and decide how the world reacts.In D&D adventurers should be allowed to take over kingdoms.

You don't get to write the climax, the story flow, the plot points or character development. You provide a setting, keep it flowing, and provide reactions. You don't decide that the bad guy dies in a sword fight over a volcano, or that he is redeemed and dies protecting the world he loved. That is up to the players.

GM fiat to keep the story on rails...it just robs everyone of a great experience.

Nope,

I told them, this is not meant to be a war game, even if you have the resources.
My comment also carried a hint of sarcasm.

No, if there is a valid reason to take along a hundred or even a thousand people planet side, fine, but not every single time, they are supposed to do the work, explore those ruins and engage in politics.
Not to wage war on a massive scale, its a game of adventure and intrigue.

So I granted them (well actually they are going to be introduced next session, eg tomorrow) a small squad of specialists, people they can take into social situations as unobstrusive bodyguards or into the field as fire support.

Of course some of my players would love to play out a large battle, and that will happen, so that is why I struck a bargain with them.

I will give them a few absolutely loyal troops as an escort and they won't go overboard with their soldiers...

Another point I'd like to make clear is that adventuring with a hundred troops is rather pointless (as is engaging in politics most of the time, people might feel intimidated), the logistics alone would make it rather difficult.


I prefer the idea of an honour guard/bodyguards over toting along a small army, it shows more class...

Deadline247 said:

Deadline247 said:

- First, download a copy of the Deathwatch preview Final Sanction and use its horde rules for masses of NPCs. They work much better than the mass combat rules. While Final Sanction doesn't cover all weapons, MILLANDSON has filled in the blanks in this thread (reply #23).

- If your players bring an army, then the opponents should also bring one. If you want to keep things simple, treat each army as a horde and, while the PCs take care of important NPCs, have the hordes fighting each other until one breaks. Then the unbroken horde joins in the main fight.

- Make them roll acquisition test for all the troops they bring and every piece of gear on those troops.

Santiago said:

I agree with a lot of your sentiments, but I think the best way to get this to happen is with in-game motivations, not GM fiat.

Are they being overly heavy handed? They should find that people don't work with them and feel threatened, they get a bad reputation. Rogue Traders and other individuals give them a hard time. They loose respect and are seen as brutes. The difficulty of organizing a and deploying large amounts of troops slows them down, battles escalate, etc.

Large groups will damage dig sites, activate defense systems, and attract unnecessary attention.

I agree that an honor guard is classier, but that really should be their choice. If you want to influence them that way, provide clear benefits. In social situations they get bonuses for their honor guards and negatives for bringing along hordes. Can't take an army to a state dinner, can't take march an army through a space station. Large armies cost lots of money, have them role PF checks to maintain it and penalize their PF if they fail. A heavy handed politician attracts lots of negative attention, reflect that.

The GMs job isn't to decide if they should be classy or brutes or to use fiat to threaten them into compliance. You should be able to find plenty of in game motivations and situations to discourage a wargaming mentality without resulting to meta-game threats. It hurts the suspension of disbelief.

If they always find themselves in strait forward situations where it is better to have 300 men than not, and you don't like that, than provide them with more varied and complex situations, and provide clear benefits for acting more subtle.

Bilateralrope said:

The Hordes rules from the DW preview should work fine in combination with the RT mass combat rules. Don't want to go off of thread topic but where in the RT rulebook are there rules for acquiring units of troops? I know there is a barracks ship component and that entire Imperial Guard regiments can be loaned to Rogue Traders, but is there a table in the RT book to buy troop units?

Tang86 said:

It isn't in the core rulebook. I've heard that they are in Into the Storm.

Are your players having to make Command checks to co-ordinate 10-30 people moving about and performing the assaults featured in Into the Maw?

Start asking the players how they're going to get that many people to, say, assault one woman and two servitors in cover on a bridge through a narrow bulkhead door. Don't let them say, "We send in the troops," make them tell you how the troops are deployed. Require command checks to get the deployment to work as intended - with failed checks resulting in (for example) the first wave of five getting mowed up by the servitors. If they send everyone to the fore, have an assassin sneak up behind and engage the party directly during the assault. Require a fairly difficult command check to avoid a locked stand-off at the bridge bulkhead doors if the characters aren't actively leading the assault. When the troops take losses, require command checks to avoid the rest routing, and if that's failed, have the troops run off leaving the party to face the threat alone.

Basically, require the characters to actually work to use that many men. And if someone has the Command abilities to make them work - great! They invested xp in being able to do so, so they should get to. But also do subtle things to remind the players of two things: (A) co-ordinating lots of people, even trained soldiers, is hard - especially in tight spaces, and (B) even elite troops are NPCs - these are the Star Trek redshirts, and generally incapable of the sort of proactiveness required to get important jobs done. The characters will have to do something, even if it's barking the orders that keeps these guys from getting killed when a lictor gets attracted to their numbers and slips into the rearguard while you're exploring ruins on a jungle planet. And one instance of having the Master Sergeant breaking a priceless Eldar artifact because he was the first in the inner sanctum and decided he'd pick it up and take it back to the characters should make them start thinking about going in first themselves, on occasion.

And I guess my final advice would be to watch some episodes of Star Trek (the original series) and watch how the issue was handled there. The bridge crew rarely went anywhere without some redshirts - but the exciting stuff always seemed to either happen while the main characters were split off from the rest of the troops (who were usually sweeping the area) or happened to a redshirt, to highlight the danger of the situation. Nothing wrong with learning from great examples of the genre, after all.

My players also have a tendency to bring hundreds of troops with them.

So far its working out ok, but it can get time consuming. I'm going to look at the horde rules for speeding up combat.

To be fair i think the challenge is designing encounters and making sure your players know, in an in-universe sense, what is appropriate.

i.e.

-dinner with the liege of Footfall - two bodyguards, ceremonial armour only

-exploring an abandoned battleship, - hundreds of troops landing at different boarding points, PCs make for the bridge with a few squads

-Conquering city - thousands of troops, PCs head for the palace with 100 men

-Gathering info at a seedy bar in Port Wander - one or two bodyguards, disguised as locals and sent ahead

Its all about context. If you have a situation where your players would be sensible to take thousands of troops then let them.

In Lure of the Expanse my players conquered one of the Priest-Kings cities by deploying 800 of their well equipped troops. At the same time they led 100 men to the palace and executed the priest-king. Most of the 100 went off in various directions in the palace so they only had about 30 with them in the throne room.

OK, I checked out the Horde rules in Deathwatch and I love them...very simple and easy for everyone to understand, yet effective. I also listened to a podcast recording of an actual play session of Final Sanction grew to love these rules even more: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-21-season-2-episode-1/id338471912?i=85535464

My question now is this...what magnitude would you give a group of 20 or 30 soldiers?

It depends of their "power". Magnitude is a mix of number and individual training/power , a unit of 20 greenhorns will be far less effective than a unit of 20 war veterans. Their skills will be different, but they will also have more difficulties to coordinate and take advantage of their number. I personally use the horde rules in my RT games and they work well. I always choose the magnitude of the horde by considering the danger it represents, not their number.

It would depend on the quality of the troops, I would say 1 or 2, maybe 3 for Elite...

Santiago said:

So if I read the rules right, you don't start adding extra d10s to damage rules until you get to at least magnitude 10, correct?

I wouldn't let a RT onto my Bridge with a shedload of armsmen... why is Lady Ash?

I would send some people down to meet the shuttle and escort the important people (PCs) up to the Bridge. The rest get to stay and guard the shuttle...

Bonus points for GMs who make the PCs think of leaving their armsmen behind...

"As you step out of the shuttle you notice that your landing has roused the interest of the locals..."

Deadline247 said:

That sounds right from what I have seen of DW-FS.